The Soviet Cuba Division

[Mohoender]

Wonder if the Cuban would liberate the equipment for themselves...

I would think yes if you go with the statement made in the game. Cuba wanted to get rid of the Soviets in hope of remaining neutral. Then, arming them is their best option to get rid of them. However, I wonder where these T-80s come from?

[Canadian Army]

However, I wonder where these T-80s come from?

Maybe they were part of this lot:
"In late 1993 Russia signed a contract with the People's Republic of China for the sale of 200 T-80U MBTs for evaluation. For unknown reasons only 50 were delivered." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-80#Pe...ublic_of_China)

[Mohoender]

Interesting good point

[WallShadow]

Maybe they were part of this lot:
"In late 1993 Russia signed a contract with the People's Republic of China for the sale of 200 T-80U MBTs for evaluation. For unknown reasons only 50 were delivered." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-80#Pe...ublic_of_China)

Makes one wonder how the T-80 export model fared against the "home-consumption" model in the Sino-Soviet clash?

[Olefin]

An interesting link that could bring some light on what the division might have been composed of

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-09-12/news/mn-2964_1_soviet-union

"MOSCOW - President Mikhail S. Gorbachev announced Wednesday that he has decided to begin withdrawing Soviet troops from Cuba, winding down a 32-year military alliance with the Western Hemisphere's only Communist regime.

Secretary of State James A. Baker III hailed the move as "a very substantial gesture" that would help Gorbachev win economic aid from the West.

"We will soon begin discussions with the Cuban leadership about the withdrawal of the Soviet training brigade in Cuba," Gorbachev told reporters at the Kremlin after meeting with Baker for more than two hours. He said he expects that the brigade will leave Cuba in the "near future."

Gorbachev said the Soviet Union has about 11,000 military personnel in Cuba. Other officials said the training brigade he mentioned included fewer than 3,000, or about one-fourth of the total."

it goes on to say

"The withdrawal of the training brigade announced by Gorbachev would still leave as many as 8,000 Soviet troops on the island, including a motorized rifle brigade of about 3,000 and an unknown number of military intelligence personnel.

Gorbachev's figure of 11,000 for Soviet troop strength in Cuba was significantly higher than most Western estimates, which run from 7,700 to 9,000.

The Soviet military uses Cuba as a major base for electronic eavesdropping on the United States and Latin America, as a facility for resupplying submarines that patrol the U.S. coast and as a landing point for Backfire bombers. It is unclear from Gorbachev's remarks whether those functions would be affected by his cut"


Another link I found is this http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articl...ollapsing-cuba

It mentions the following: " In September Gorbachev announced that the Soviet Union would pull its 11,000-man military brigade out of Cuba-a figure subsequently explained to include 3,000 combat troops, 3,000 signal intelligence personnel, 3,500 military advisers and some civilians in military-related roles"


So at the very least you are looking at a 3000-3500 man training brigade and a motorized rifle regiment of 3000 men along with those manning the eavesdropping facility (3000 strong) and the naval personnel that manned the resupply facility for a total of 11,000 men.

That, combined with withdrawn personnel from various embassies in the area and possibly KGB and GRU personnel who were in Cuba would make for enough manpower for sure for a division.

If you look at what is written about them in the Texas module you can see they had a mix of BTR-70's and BMP's, with the BTR-70's being more prevalent which suggests it was a BTR Motorized Rifle Regiment and not a BMP one. Also what is interesting is that unless they were heavily reinforced by the Cubans with tanks, a MRR only has about 41 total tanks - a single tank battalion with an extra tank in the HQ section. Given what they had left it would mean they had only lost 26 tanks taking on the 49th which doesn't sound that realistic given the composition of the 49th. Most likely that means the Cubans reinforced them with tanks from their own units, thus resulting in the mix of tanks they have left - i.e. mostly T-72 or T-80 but also could be types the Cuban Army was equipped with.

So if you base its composition on historical information:

One Motorized Rifle Regiment - 3000 men with one tank battalion and three BTR battalions (which would have some BMP's as well) - the one on duty in Cuba

One Motorized Rifle Regiment - again about 3000 strong, most likely being the training personnel - armed with Cuban material - most likely a mix of BMP-1's and BTR-60's along with a tank battalion of T-62's

One Tank Battalion - another 40 or so tanks, again most likely Cuban T-62's or T-54/55 - 165 men

Recon Battalion and Engineering Battalion - around 350 men each

Artillery Regiment, SAM Regiment, various other support battalions - most likely formed from the signal and support troops in Cuba - about 3600 men or so if they were formed at full strength

One Helicopter Squadron of about 18 helicopters with at least some surviving to 2001, most likely heavy on attack helos, probably reinforced by captured American civilian helicopters (as mentioned in the Texas module the Soviet commander was hoping to use the fuel to get his attack helicopters back into operation) - maybe 200 men

Add it up its about 11,000 men - which matches what Gorbachev said was there in 1991

Plust that gives the Soviets around 120 tanks of various types at the start - which gives them more than enough to engage the 49th with a real possibility of victory when you add in the BTR's and BMP's that are with them

[unkated]

Cubans and Angola

Order of battle information for Cuba seems really hard to track down. I've been interested in seeing an OOB for their real world involvement in Angola and there just doesn't seem to be any hard info out there, even historical estimates from US or other western intelligence agencies of old SADF intel.

A lot of the answer depends on which timeline want to play out.

In RL, Cuba had 20-40,000 troops plus some 11,000 civilian advisors and workers (teachers doctors, enginneers) in Angola between 1975 (Angolan independence) and the end of 1988.

In spring 1988, in RL, the Cubans had some 55,000 troops in Angola (a notable portion of the total), 40,000 of them in southern Angola, poised to launch an offensive into SW Afrika (Namibia), in an attempt to outflank an offensive from South Africa and UNITA that had beaten the tar out of Angolan forces in southeast Angola. 15,000 of those troops had just been brought from Cuba - Fidel's own 50th Div. Cuban and Angola between them had some 600 tanks. South Africa reacts by calling up 140,000 reserve troops.

The Cuban offensive was cut short as part of a general effort toward disengagement by Gorbachev. At the end of 1988, The Brazzaville Protocol was signed, and Cuban and South African troops both began to leave Angola, and were all gone in a 12-18 months. In the same time frame (1989), a UN brokered-peace is negotiated in Mozambique.

And in South Africa itself, no longer needed as a close ally against communist supported former Portuguese colonies, international pressure rose against the Apartheid regime, and the political process was allowed to change South Africa, avoiding a violent revolution, and ending apartheid.

But, in a V1 timeline, there is no general east/west easing and disengagement. In Europe. It doesn't mention it, but if Gorbachev did not make an effort to end the Cold War (that was killing Russia trying to keep up with western military expansion/upgrades that inspired T2K in the first place), then.... would the Angola War have ended?

Or would there still be tens of thousands of Cuban troops in Angola, fighting the full-scale war against South Africa they prepared for?

The V1 timeline preserves the apartheid government of South Africa, meaning the pressure from the west did not occur - probably because they were needed against Cuban troops. So there is probably still a war - cool with points of hot action every few years.

Actually, that can play fairly well into the creation of Division Cuba - add almost another decade to Cuban involvement in Africa, and that is a small country taking losses it cannot well afford. Cubans can get angry enough to blame Castro and his support for the Soviet Union. They can remove him from power, and then create a new government bent on achieving a neutral stance. And then choose to withdraw their remaining troops and advisors from Angola.

A V2 timeline, following RL through the build down of the 1980s, Africa is less changed from our RL timeline (up to 1997), especially the further you get from the Middle East. (I have an alternate southern Africa timeline I've been working on about President Mandela and WW3, but that is another story).

Uncle Ted

[Olefin]

Ted

The Division Cuba we are talking about here is the Soviet Division Cuba that in the V1 and V2 timeline assists the Mexicans in their invasion of Texas.

As for Angola the war must have went on, with the Cubans eventually being defeated and withdrawing - as a regiment that was part of that withdrawal and their defeat in Angola is in the Spanish Main module.

Be interesting to see how much hardware the Cubans would have given the Soviets when they got sent to Texas as the improvised Soviet Division Cuba - they had the one motor rifle regiment there but the rest would have little more than side arms and possibly some AK's - and if the division must have had more equipment given to it by the Cubans to be able to stand up to the 49th Armored and defeat it

[unkated]

The Division Cuba we are talking about here is the Soviet Division Cuba that in the V1 and V2 timeline assists the Mexicans in their invasion of Texas.

I'm well aware of what the Division Cuba is. However, if you look back at the message I was replying to, HorseSoldier was talking about the number of Cuban troops, what they were, and where they were; he mentioned Angola.

My point was that the answer depends a lot on which timeline you use. In RL (and V2 timelines), the Cuban army (and its equipment) is mostly home in Cuba. Spanish Main is not a V2 timeline, but that is easy enough to fix.

In a V1 timeline, there are other possibilities. Also, a continued war (and losses) means Cuban equipment destroyed in Angola would need to be replaced - by T-72s rather than T-62s, and possible a T-80s (or plans for T-80s, meaning some would be delivered to the Soviet training teams to start tatrining Cubans). On the other hand, disasterous losses would leave the Cubans unlikely to be willing to part with any equipment, since by the beginning of 1997, the Soviets aren't likely to have any to spare for a while (in any timeline).

[Olefin]

One thing that is interesting is that the Cubans never got involved in the war in anyway - the official canon is that they were too scared to get nuked by the US but by 2000 that is not exactly a huge threat (as the canon implies that any warheads the US has left have all been taken to Colorado Springs - at least as to the ones at airbases or in missile silos).

The one thing that probably kept them out was oil and gas supplies - they basically were depending on the Soviets pretty much exclusively at that time. However you would figure that would make them even more prone to join the war to try to grab any supplies they could once the US started to fall apart in 1999.

Maybe they put all their eggs into Africa in the V1 timeline and between that and supplying the Soviet Division Cuba with equipment they dont have much left in the way of armor or mechanized equipment.

I usually use V1 by the way mainly because of the paucity of official releases for V2

[unkated]

Cuban Pirate/Vikings!

Thinking about it (I tended to think about the NE in the US), I would agree that unless the Cuban people were extremely unhappy with the Castros, while they might lay low in 1997 & 98, by 1999, I have trouble seeing how they could resist tweaking Uncle Sam's beard - kicking the fallen giant.

No need to keep and hold turf (though some central/southern Florida cropland would not have been a bad thing) - raid!

Cuban soldiery raiding, using small flotillas of fishing boats. Land, shoot up any resistance, and make off with food, weapons, finished goods.

Cuba, actually, is well set up for 1997 and a cutting off of Soviet-supplied oil in that they have industrial-sized distilleries and grow sugar cane. No, you cannot fly aircraft using it, but you can power motor boats and vehicles.

It's got possibilities.

"Today, the forces of the People's republic of Cuba brought enlightenment and freedom to the town of Jupiter, Florida, ending a reign of terror by its local police. The grateful townspeople donated 4 tons of canned goods, a ton of recently harvested oranges, and two 20-ft sailing vessels to the free people of Cuba. Viva la Revolucion!"

[Olefin]

Actually I was also thinking about how the Cubans might want to really say hi to the New Americans as well -you have to admit their manifesto is not exactly Latin American friendly - and given what they were doing in Grenada I could see Castro's people really wanting to give them a good butt kicking

and you are right - Cuba may not have a lot of oil but they sure have sugarcane - could easily see them being the targets of raiders themselves - after all that much ethanol is a real prize

and Cuban medical supplies and doctors right now in 2001 are literally worth their weight in gold

[Olefin]

"Today, the forces of the People's republic of Cuba brought enlightenment and freedom to the town of Jupiter, Florida, ending a reign of terror by its local police. The grateful townspeople donated 4 tons of canned goods, a ton of recently harvested oranges, and two 20-ft sailing vessels to the free people of Cuba. Viva la Revolucion!"

Now that sounds like the start of a very interesting module right there

[jester]

But, do the Cubans have the sealift capability to land a force sizable enough that won't get wiped out by Buba, his cousins and their shotguns without even reaching dry sand?

Would such an operation be worth the expenditure in fuel? For propaganda purposes sure, to the diehard Marxists. But, I doubt most Cubans are true followers of the "Workers Revolution." When in reality most are simply scraping by.

I would wager that most of the populations lives are pretty hard without a war and now would get much harder without oil and aid and the limited trade it had. I think the ruling elite and military would be very worried about a revolt by the disaffected masses.

And with that scenario, DIA or even some Free Cubans in exile could see that and do raids of their own....maybe land a few SF teams to get the disaffected masses riled up and topple the Castro regime.

[Olefin]

Which could also explain why the Cubans are getting out of Dodge in Africa - maybe things back home are dicey for them because the US government isn't there anymore to restrain Free Cuban groups - and they are making lots of trouble for Castro at home

[jester]

I can think of a lot of reasons why they would get out of Africa.

They can't maintain their lines of communication and supply in Africa. They see the writing on the wall, that Africa even its true believers won't be controlled by Havana and its advisors and personnel will be tolerated but only to an extent. Or, they have even been told informaly of course they are no longer welcome.

Although, I really don't think true revolutionaries would care if their people were left behind to fend for themselves. After all the individual is nothing compared to the people and easily sacrificed. Other than face or propaganda I just don't see Cuba really giving a damn if its people were left to be sliced to ribbons by pangas dripping red with blood....unless they could use it for political/propaganda purposes.