Cavalry in Twilight 2000

[James Langham]

again, please comment.

[antimedic]

good stuff

[Raellus]

Again, good stuff James. I like the formatting and the "interviews". You might want to mention the common use of cavalry as scouts. You could cite the U.S. 5th ID's 4-12 cavalry at the Battle of Kalisz as a prime and instantly recognizable example.

[James Langham]

Again, good stuff James. I like the formatting and the "interviews". You might want to mention the common use of cavalry as scouts. You could cite the U.S. 5th ID's 4-12 cavalry at the Battle of Kalisz as a prime and instantly recognizable example.

Version 2 will incorporate more on the tactical use as scouts and the 4-12. Anyone got any useful detail on 4-12

[Webstral]

This is a splendid addition to our growing body of material. Good work finding photographs to insert into your narrative. Your narrative voice is a good one. I look forward to reading more of your work, James.

Webstral

[dragoon500ly]

Excellent material!!!

[Abbott Shaull]

Yes a really well thought out and document write up. I know we have discussed the use of Cavalry but don't remember if it was on this forum, the old site before we moved here or over on Yahoo Groups...

One of the things that I always thought was that the number of troops in each troop and squadron were quite low until the Custer Last Stand thread and found out how large the 7th Cavalry and how many Officers and Troopers were assigned to other duties...include the Commanding Officer who seems to not have spent much time leading his Regiment...

[dragoon500ly]

The only real drawback to horse-mounted cavalry is the capacity of the horse to carry rider and equipment. While a bit dated (this is the official equipment and weights from the 1870s) the following list gives some idea of what could be carried.

Halter: 2lbs 1oz
Watering Bridle: 1lb 1.5oz
Bridle: 2lbs 13oz
Saddle: 14lbs 13.5oz
Saddle Bags (empty): 2lbs 2oz
Filling of near side pouch of saddle bags (rations): 11lbs 2oz
Filling of off side puch of saddle bags (1pr socks, 1 pair shorts, 2 shirts, 40rds
carbine ammo, toilet articles): 7lbs 8oz
Forage Sack (empty): 6oz
15lbs of oats in forage sack: 15lbs
Lariat and picket pin: 3lbs 1.5oz
Greatcoat: 4lbs 6.5oz
Brush and shoe pouch (empty): 1lb
Curry-comb and brush in near side pocket: 1lb 8oz
2 horseshoes and 15 shoe nails on off side pocket; 2lbs
2 blankets: 6lbs 14oz
Saddle cover: 1lb
Surcingle: 11.5oz
Saber and slings: 4lbs 12oz
Waist-belt and plate: 1lb
Pistol and holster: 3lbs 2oz
Carbine sling and swivel: 10lbs 4oz
Carbine cartridge box (empty): 1lb
24 rds of carbine ammo: 2lbs
Pistol cartridge box (empty): 4oz
12 rounds of pistol ammo: 14oz
Man: 140lbs

All of this gives a total weight for a five day field exercise of 240lbs, 12.5oz.

Now, of course certain items can be dropped from the list but the key thing to remember is that the weights carried must balance between the near and off-sides of the horses. This is to prevent injury to the animal. And the maximum load that can be carried is 240lbs. This helps explain the extensive train that has to support horse cavalry.

[Tegyrius]

Man: 140lbs

That right there is going to be a huge limiting factor. Even after a few years of short rations and no Burger King, few soldiers who grew up with late 20th century nutrition are going to be near that weight.

- C.

[dragoon500ly]

That right there is going to be a huge limiting factor. Even after a few years of short rations and no Burger King, few soldiers who grew up with late 20th century nutrition are going to be near that weight.

- C.

That's the first problem. Its just a guess, but I have the feeling that the average trooper is going to be right around 160-170lbs...and don't forget that the horse on the previous list is a cavalry-trained Morgan breed...may not be too many of those running around Europe. So the actual horses available will be either draft horses which can carry more weight, but are slower and larger. Or a lot of ponies which are faster, but can't carry as much weight.

[dragoon500ly]

It's occured to me that a lot of people on the list may not enjoy the sport of horse-back riding....and yes I am one of those. Following is a description of the various parts of a military saddle and what they do...

The saddle itself has a prommel (that pointee thing that sticks up at the front) and a cantle (that raised bar looking thing at the back), they are connected by a pair of trees (the bracing for the seat). The trees can be adjusted to better fit the horse's back. A prommel plate is the metal piece bolted to the prommel that is used to steady the rider as he mounts/dismounts. A cantle plate is bolted to the rear of the rear of the cantle and helps hold the cantle skirt on (this is the flap of leather that juts out about 5-6 inches from the back of the cantle.

Fastened to the trees are the stirrup-bar plates (these are the main connecting points for the stirrups). There are also several straps bolted at front and rear that will be used to secure equipment.

The seat is normally made from rawhide, nailed to the prommel and cantle and then laced to the trees with thongs.

The pad, normally made of sheepskin and stuffed with curled horse hair and guilted is then laced to the seat, prommel and cantle.

The girth is then attached to the tree by both thongs and a buckle/loop arrangment. This is the belly band that holds the saddle and rider to the horse.

2 Chapes are buckled to the trees, these are the leather pieces that protect the legs and buckle onto the stirrups.

2 Stirrups are buckled to the bottom of the chapes. These can be wood or metal and usually take a upside down U-shape with a flat bar on the bottom. Stirrups can be either open or closed. A open stirrup is vulnerable to snagging on branches, the rider's foot can also slip forward and allow the rider to be dragged (this is the reason why a trooper's boot normally has a higher heel). A closed stirrup protects the front part of the rider's foot, but conceals any damage to the stirrup (causing the rider to fall when he tries to mount).

The crupper is a Y-shaped strap that ends in a padded ring. The horses tail is inserted into the ring which slides up to the base of the tail, the top of the Y then buckles to the cantle. It is used to help stabilize the saddle when moving up and down hills.

The surcingle is another Y-shaped strap, the upper pieces buckle on either side of the prommel and the bottom strapped, formed into a ring, slips over the girth. It is used to stabilize the saddle when moving up and down.

The halter is the network of straps that fit around the horses held and a strap that runs down and is buckled to the surcingle.

The Bridle contains the bit, straps onto the halter and has two reins leading back to the rider.

The saddle blanket is about 54 inches square and is folded several times before being placed on the horse, the saddle is then placed and strapped into place.


The problem of converting a unit to horse-mounted cavalry would require a lot of careful scrouinging to get saddles and riding horses. Not to mention training troopers to ride, and the services of blacksmiths and saddlewrights...not exactly common jobs now days!

[Mohoender]

Nice work but as in previous talking about cavalry, I continue to disagree with several things.

I agree with the idea that Europe at the time of T2K lacks the proper number of horses but, provided you can get them, cavalry units can be very useful.

I agree about the fact that soldiers capable of caring for the horses will be in small numbers but that is not a real problem. Between 1917 and 1921, Trotsky managed to built the best cavalry in the world, numbering in thousands and coming out from nothing.

I also agree with the idea that cavalry will be mounted light infantry. However, they will be very usefull to conduct deep penetration raid against communication lines and peacefull towns.

I agree with the idea that lancers will be a question of fashion but, sabers will be readopted really fast, at least as a sign of pride.

Cavalry units can travel 60 miles in a day and they are very useful when used in collaboration with armored units. Rough terrain is their weekpoint not bad terrain. The germans experienced it in WW2. As their mechanized units were stuck in the snow and mud of Russia, the Soviet cavalry was freely conducting devastating raids on their rear.

In T2K they won't suffer from their worse ennemy: aircrafts.

Supply will be a problem of course but so it is for everyone. Cavalry units will have to develop their foraging technics. A standard soviet unit at the time of the russian revolution had about the lightest support unit (10-15% of the fighting force).

Whatever, they will not appear over night. If you take the case of pact forces you can expect most cavalry units to be from Siberia-Mongolia and Central Asia.

[Mohoender]

The problem of converting a unit to horse-mounted cavalry would require a lot of careful scrouinging to get saddles and riding horses. Not to mention training troopers to ride, and the services of blacksmiths and saddlewrights...not exactly common jobs now days!

Trotsky managed to put factory workers from Moscow and Saint Petersburg on Horseback in weeks. Where is the problem to do the same with leasy westerners as we are Of course you can walk back through the all of Europe.

I don't think that a US commander from Texas lost in the middle of Poland with the need to improve access to supply and protection of its flank will give you the choice. If I'm that commander and get my hands on 50-100 horses. I'll order one of my subordinates to organize a cavalry unit. Then, this unit will have to be used as scouts, raiders, covering forces and I'll use them as support mounted infantry to what is left of my armored force.

[Rainbow Six]

Nice piece of work.

For anyone interested in this subject, I'd also recommend a book called "Horse Soldiers" by Doug Stanton. It covers the activities of a US Special Forces Detachment working with the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan at the end of 2001 and and has a fair amount of detail on the subject of US troops (some of whom were experienced horsemen, some of whom were not) operating on horseback.

[James Langham]

Texans

I don't think that a US commander from Texas lost in the middle of Poland with the need to improve access to supply and protection of its flank will give you the choice. If I'm that commander and get my hands on 50-100 horses. I'll order one of my subordinates to organize a cavalry unit. Then, this unit will have to be used as scouts, raiders, covering forces and I'll use them as support mounted infantry to what is left of my armored force.

That might make it in as a quote!