Surplus armor in T2K

[schnickelfritz]

To all-
I'm sorry if this has been discussed here previously, as I am new to the forum.

I reenact WW2 and have had the luck of coming into contact with WW2 and postwar armor from a variety of nations. In the Midwest US we have M-5 tanks, your odd M4A3 Sherman, M-36's, a pair of Hetzer/G-13 tank destroyers, and a gaggle of US M-2 & M-3 series half tracks. There are even several (four that I've seen and/or touched personally) Czech OT-810 halftracks running within a hundred mile radius of Chicago.

Has the use of older armor (including obsolete cold war stuff) been ever discussed for a CONUS campaign The half tracks and scout cars are fairly common for what they are, but I see some real wierd stuff from time to time pop up that had been practically hidden in garages over the years.

Just don't ask me why someone would go through all that trouble to never run it or show it...I can't get my head around that one.

It would seem to me that having a half track and/or M-20 available to a local militia would be really valuable, even if only armed with 30 or 50-cal MG's. With the exception of the German WW2 stuff, most of if cannot be easier to work on. Occaisionally I see something like a M5 Stuart pop up in a town square from time to time. There is even a M60A3 in very good shape about 20 miles from here that was donated 5-10 years ago. It appears to be a M60A3 TTS.

About 2 miles from here a guy built a M35 2.5ton gun truck ala Vietnam...no, it is not named "Eve of Destruction." it still looks sharp in black with red lettering, though.

-Thoughts

Thanks!
Dave

[raketenjagdpanzer]

There is a guy in California - you can see his collection on Tank Fixers - who has no fewer than 20 operational or at the worst semi-operational MBTs spanning all eras including the 1970's/80's with a handful of T62s and '72s.

Additionally, he has a machine shop capable of completely rebuilding tanks if need be.

I think the guy is far enough away from any metropolitan areas that in the event he'd be safe...and he'd become a huge asset for whomever could convince him (in whatever manner) to work for them - CivGov, MilGov, marauders, what have you.

Shit I could see in terms of sheer desperation stuff being pulled out of armor and military museums; a working Sherman is still a tank, and when your opponent is a bunch of guys with hunting rifles crouched behind a log and dirt berm...well...advantage: tank owner.

[Legbreaker]

Even without working weaponry/ammo an armoured vehicle is still very valuable. Firstly there's the intimidation factor, and secondly, they literally weigh tonnes! They can roll over and crush infantry, light vehicles and emplacements.
Naturally equipping said older AFVs with working weaponry only enhances their value.

Almost anywhere you look in the world you will find collectors or museums which will either be raided or form the core of an armoured force of some type. As a GM, almost anything can be justified, provided of course it's not the local US police force armed with a brand new T-80 (A T-55 is possible though).

[helbent4]

It would seem to me that having a half track and/or M-20 available to a local militia would be really valuable, even if only armed with 30 or 50-cal MG's. With the exception of the German WW2 stuff, most of if cannot be easier to work on. Occaisionally I see something like a M5 Stuart pop up in a town square from time to time. There is even a M60A3 in very good shape about 20 miles from here that was donated 5-10 years ago. It appears to be a M60A3 TTS.

About 2 miles from here a guy built a M35 2.5ton gun truck ala Vietnam...no, it is not named "Eve of Destruction." it still looks sharp in black with red lettering, though.

Dave,

Welcome to the list (or at least with regards to posting actively).

I don't think this has been specifically discussed but it's very germane. During the Yugoslav civil war, T-34/85s were pulled out of museums and other places (the back of the motor pool in some cases) and thrown into battle. The following is a knocked-out T-34/85. The middle road wheels are from a T-55:



At any rate, it makes sense that anything would be pressed into service. In the Aftermath adventure "Empire of Karo" the city-state has put some M4 Shermans into service by installing diesel bus engines.

What would the stats be for an older tank like an M4, powered by a bus engine Just curious.

Tony

[irishboy]

I've got a tangent to go off on here.

I read a newspaper article about this company a year or two ago, and comments of the OP made me think of it right away.

http://www.driveatank.com/

This is a business run by a collector. There were postings for 'tanks for sale' even!

This all happens about 90 minutes south of Minneapolis, MN.

Back to the topic though, it's a great point. There's quite a few armored vehicles out there if you know where to look.

[Canadian Army]

M113s

There would also would be fare number of M113s around; as a number of police departments used it for SWAT operations; and fair bit in private hands (museums and private collections). On a side note NASA has three used for for emergency evacuation/firefighting.

[dragoon500ly]

There are a suprisingly large number of M-114s running around with the police, as well as V-100 and V-150 armored cars.

[HorseSoldier]

Additionally, he has a machine shop capable of completely rebuilding tanks if need be.

That would be part of the trick. The bottlenecks I see for vintage or unusual AFVs would include:

1) Mechanical know how -- You've got to have someone who can keep the thing(s) running. In some cases this wouldn't be too tough, in some cases it would be a huge trick (i.e. the Patton Museum has all kinds of trouble in real life just getting their Panther to crank and drive around a bit; post-apocalypse it's not going to be spearheading MilGov's drive to recapture Memphis).

2) Automotive logistics -- Either a big stack of spare or #1 plus something like the machine shop mentioned in the quote above or else you're either going to have static pill boxes or be leaving a trail of broken down antiques in your wake behind you during movements.

3) Ammunition and associated logistics -- Again, this one can be an easy one or a hard one depending on the specific weapons and such. I could be completely wrong, but I don't think the US government has any stocks anywhere of 76mm ammo to support an operational M4A3E8 Sherman, for instance. Short of a group coming into possession of a forgotten 50s era emergency stockpile, main guns wouldn't be supportable for most of the vintage US stuff. (Such a stockpile could explain sustainable supplies of spare parts and maybe even the vehicles themselves, too . . .)

4) Local stability -- If marauders are killing off your mechanical know how and burning the barns containing your antique armor to the ground before you can get the stuff combat ready, it's a show stopper. Likewise if things are so desperate that your mechanics have to spend all their time trying to hunt rats for the collective stew pot just to survive, it's a show stopper as well.

For CONUS operations post-TDM, I think the vintage armor I'd really want to lay hands on would be some M42 Dusters -- 40mm ammo would still have been available (even without alternate historying it to have the Sgt York program successful and in service) and enough vehicles and parts would have been around to keep them running if you had access to them (I always wonder about wikipedia, but it says the last NG unit equipped with them didn't retire them until 1988.) And from accounts from Korea and Vietnam, those things were absolute murdering pieces against troops in the open.

[Adm.Lee]

I think a GM running anywhere in the States could get away with a town or city militia having at least one static ex-tank. The number of American Legion or VFW posts with Shermans out front on display makes that possible.

Surely they could turn up the horsepower to drag such a hulk somewhere useful (like overlooking a bridge) and re-install a machine gun and a phone.

[Legbreaker]

http://www.driveatank.com/

This is a business run by a collector. There were postings for 'tanks for sale' even!

This all happens about 90 minutes south of Minneapolis, MN.

Theres a few collectors here in Australia too that keep working AFVs for joyrides and sales. I've even heard of a couple of old Centurions being used as farm tractors.

[Raellus]

For CONUS operations post-TDM, I think the vintage armor I'd really want to lay hands on would be some M42 Dusters -- 40mm ammo would still have been available (even without alternate historying it to have the Sgt York program successful and in service) and enough vehicles and parts would have been around to keep them running if you had access to them (I always wonder about wikipedia, but it says the last NG unit equipped with them didn't retire them until 1988.) And from accounts from Korea and Vietnam, those things were absolute murdering pieces against troops in the open.

...or buildings. I'm reading a book about the battle of Hue and there are descriptions of Dusters collapsing entire masonry buildings with 40mm fire. For similar reasons, the Russians found their ZU-23-4 Shilka's to be their deadliest urban warfare weapon in Grozny.

[pmulcahy11b]

Theres a few collectors here in Australia too that keep working AFVs for joyrides and sales. I've even heard of a couple of old Centurions being used as farm tractors.

That happens in a lot of former Eastern Bloc countries and Russia -- vehicles are demilled and used by logging companies, as vehicles to transport scientific teams across rough terrain, as rescue vehicles in firefighting, and other stuff. There's even a version of the BMP-1 called the Ladoga which is a luxury vehicle inside, and transport for VIPs in hazardous areas on the outside.

[Legbreaker]

I believe somewhere in north America (could be US, could be Canada) there's an M60 tank which is used for triggering avalanches (saw it on a doco a few years back).

[Raellus]

"Surplus armor" owned by civilian citizens would probably be overlooked by the military until things started to get really bad (post-TDM). At that point, private collections near military installations would probably be commandeered, restored, and used in some capacity. Collections in out-of-the-way places might be commandeered by civilian defense forces or aspiring warlords. Whether such groups could actually operate said vehicles is an open question.

As several folks have already pointed out, keeping such vehicles up and running is going to be rather difficult and it's likely that many of them are going to end up as static pillboxes or showpieces sooner or later.

I figure most such private collections are very small (one or two vehicles at most) but there are a couple of very large collections here in the U.S. There's at least one such mega-collection in Nevada, I believe. There was an AFV restoration show on Military Channel or Discovery a couple of years back that featured several vehicles acquired and restored by a wealthy patron's hand-picked crew. They had all kinds of WWII and Cold-War era AFVs- everything from a Hellcat TD to a fomer target-range Sherman to a Centurion MBT to a German Panther recovered from a Polish river. All were restored to operational condition.

[Matt W]

The US Forest Service has a number of artillery pieces (and tanks) for avalanche control.

This might inspire some ideas

http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.phpshowtopic=29295&st=20