The what was they thinking thread

[Legbreaker]

Done that. Can't say it's much fun, but as long as the unit commander isn't in a huge hurry and appreciates that in jungle everything takes a lot longer, it's not a major problem.
Loads of 50kgs (110lbs) aren't all that uncommon in the infantry.

[Targan]

The Vietnam-era LRRP consisted of six men, when these people went into the jungle on recon, they got to carry:
[snip]
120 40mm HE shells

10 40mm Buckshot shells

6 40mm Parachute Flare shells
[snip]

That's an impressive number of 40mm grenades! Effective munitions though so I can understand why so many.

I have a question - If the XM-21 was fielded from the second half of 1969 onwards but LRRP teams were operating for at least several years before that, what were LRRP teams using as a sniper rifle in early 1969 and before

[pmulcahy11b]

That's an impressive number of 40mm grenades! Effective munitions though so I can understand why so many.

I have a question - If the XM-21 was fielded from the second half of 1969 onwards but LRRP teams were operating for at least several years before that, what were LRRP teams using as a sniper rifle in early 1969 and before

Usually M1s and accurized Remington 700s, or National Match M14s.

[dragoon500ly]

Done that. Can't say it's much fun, but as long as the unit commander isn't in a huge hurry and appreciates that in jungle everything takes a lot longer, it's not a major problem.
Loads of 50kgs (110lbs) aren't all that uncommon in the infantry.

Been there and done that...burned the tee-shirt!

LOL

Last time I had to hump a ruck, our CO was trying for a record....most number of men that dropped out on a speed march...and humping a mortar base plate on top of alldecrap.....really SUCKS!!!!!

[dragoon500ly]

Usually M1s and accurized Remington 700s, or National Match M14s.

In the early days of 'Nam...there were Springfield M1903s complete with scope...that makes two World Wars, a Police Action and whatever the hell Vietnam was supposed to be, not a bad record!

[HorseSoldier]

That's an impressive number of 40mm grenades! Effective munitions though so I can understand why so many.

A lot of the LRRP/Ranger guys carried an XM177 and an M79 chopped down to pistol size instead of just a 79.

There seems to have been a lot of debate back then about whether lighter/stealthier teams were preferable to the heavy six man LRRP teams.

[Abbott Shaull]

One of the cases where you brought more than you thought you would need to overcome any contact and breakaway. On the other hand, it was close to being overburden so breaking away from said contact would be dicey. So what better way to lighten the load than rain down shells on them....

[helbent4]

Hmmmmm...perhaps its the feeling of invincibility that the new Army Advanced Combat Uniform gives

Lee,

Legbreaker is looking for some kind of support, perhaps indirectly, for a position he's taking in a current RPG in an ongoing situation.

I don't think it's fair for to open this situation up for comment, especially in this manner.

Tony

[Mahatatain]

On the topic of questionable decisions/orders:

"Stopping an unarmoured and unarmed vehicle in the middle of a nighttime ambush kill zone to dismount infantry when the road ahead, and behind are totally clear. At least 10 small arms, including at least one automatic weapon are spraying lead into the kill zone at the time."

Discuss.

I'm interested in what people think about this as I am playing in the same game as Leg and am one of the players who agree totally with stopping. Leg hasn't really outlined the full context of the situation however - the PCs are traveling with a VIP and the VIP's vehicle has been forced to stop. My assumption is that if we continue on past the ambush then by the time we then dismount and return the VIP will certainly be dead.

I've also just read the book "Generation Kill" and in there the SOP seems to be that you attempt to drive through an ambush unless one vehicle is stopped and if that happens everyone stops and attempts to fight off the enemy while you extract the people from the stopped vehicle (assuming that it won't run any more) and then continue on your way.

Any constructive comments welcome.

[Legbreaker]

I'm not going to comment one way or the other on this myself as it is a current situation my character has expressed views on IC.
It is something that I think those with actual experience and training could help out with, especially with advice to those who don't.

I will expand on the information given and say that the VIP's vehicle has stopped in a ditch, presumably out of the path of incoming fire and no longer under immediate threat. Also, said VIP has only been known to 17 out of 18 characters (both PC and NPC) for a matter of an hour or two, and the party is under no obligation to protect them (although long term it's probably in their best interests).

Surrounding terrain is open fields with the nearest significant cover (a treeline) approximately 6-700 metres away, in the direction of the enemy.

What it all boils down to I suppose is do vehicles stop, or push through.

[Mahatatain]

I will expand on the information given and say that the VIP's vehicle has stopped in a ditch, presumably out of the path of incoming fire and no longer under immediate threat.

That is a major assumption!

Also, said VIP has only been known to 17 out of 18 characters (both PC and NPC) for a matter of an hour or two, and the party is under no obligation to protect them (although long term it's probably in their best interests).

I think that you've answered your own question there!

[Legbreaker]

No, not at all.
If a vehicle is in a ditch, and below normal ground level, one could assume that bullets fired towards it are likely to go over the top, or at least not hit the lower part of the vehicle. Provided of course the laws of physics didn't change while I wasn't looking...

And separate to the disabled vehicle, the question remains - does another vehicle(s) stop/slow and disgorge infantry into an active ambush killzone, or drive on out of immediate danger and then deal with the ambush

Note also there is no backup or reaction force. The only people capable of doing anything are in the truck.

[HorseSoldier]

I'm interested in what people think about this as I am playing in the same game as Leg and am one of the players who agree totally with stopping. Leg hasn't really outlined the full context of the situation however - the PCs are traveling with a VIP and the VIP's vehicle has been forced to stop. My assumption is that if we continue on past the ambush then by the time we then dismount and return the VIP will certainly be dead.

The magic words are bump plan, as in the plan you have as an SOP for a disabled vehicle (and rehearsed a lot) before you ever leave the wire, or its equivalent.

Typical features of bump plans would include a dedicated bump vehicle that has extra seating/space for quickly loading people from another disabled vehicle. Having tow straps pre-rigged on vehicles (ideally so that drivers and/or passengers can hook them up without even getting out of the vehicle) is a nice thing to have.

I've also just read the book "Generation Kill" and in there the SOP seems to be that you attempt to drive through an ambush unless one vehicle is stopped and if that happens everyone stops and attempts to fight off the enemy while you extract the people from the stopped vehicle (assuming that it won't run any more) and then continue on your way.

That was the no-combat-experience SOP someone in DOD dreamed up before people started doing it for real with regular consistency.

Anyone you leave in a kill zone will (hence the term) be killed. Either while they're sitting on the X, or in an internet video later where they're wearing an orange jumpsuit and everyone else is dressed in ninja masks. It's all situational, but there are better ways to approach that situation. Having everyone who is able lay down suppressive fire while the bump vehicle recovers the stranded folks would be a pretty common SOP post-Iraq Invasion.

Video linked below is of some PMCs getting IED'ed in southern Iraq. You'll notice that the vehicle starts slowing down after the hit, but then starts regaining speed late in the video -- that's the vehicle to their rear pushing it out of the kill zone.

http://www.youtube.com/watchv=HEJdMDEHMDM

[dragoon500ly]

A lot of the LRRP/Ranger guys carried an XM177 and an M79 chopped down to pistol size instead of just a 79.

There seems to have been a lot of debate back then about whether lighter/stealthier teams were preferable to the heavy six man LRRP teams.

There was an arguement in the Infantry Journal about the ideal size for a recon patrol, being one man. The argument was that a single man would leave less trace, be able to hide in more places....

[dragoon500ly]

Lee,

Legbreaker is looking for some kind of support, perhaps indirectly, for a position he's taking in a current RPG in an ongoing situation.

I don't think it's fair for to open this situation up for comment, especially in this manner.

Tony

Alrighty then! Tony, truely have no idea what you are talking about...