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  • #76
    Does anyone know where the 377th Military Intelligence fits Or what units are based in and around Orlando

    I ask because I'm working on a sort of "Orlando Sourcebook" for my hopefully upcoming campaign. I've got it that most of the fallout from Tampa/St. Pete went south of Orlando, and most of what Patrick got blew out to sea.

    This leaves Orlando relatively intact, and a jewel for New America to try and seize.

    The Orlando of 2000 has a population right around 22000, most concentrated in the downtown area, near the hospital district, and the rest at the Orlando NTC (and literally right next door is the 377th's headquarters).

    Whatever I end up calling the unit - probably it'll wind up as a "Joint Task Force Operations Area" of a few hundred soldiers, here's a very rough TO&E:

    375+ troops
    1000+ dependents
    2x M113A1 (see below)
    2x LAV-100
    2x LAV-150
    2x HEMTT
    1x UH1 Iroquois
    x HMMWV

    Post strike, the skeleton crew and cadets at the NTC were quickly put on civil support duties as were the skeleton crew of the 377th, and un-deployed personnel stationed at various R&D and support posts near the University of Central Florida and several military contractors based around the city proper, as well as Army reservists and USMC reservists.

    Through the looting and riots that followed, coupled with desertions of personnel trying to either reach more distant homes or escape the urban chaos, the provisional "Sunshine Brigade" settled at around 375 personnel plus dependents. The unit is stationed at the Orlando NTC and is a frequent target of harassment by various factions throughout Florida, not the least of which is New America (See Into the Howling Wilderness).

    The Brigade is, curiously, "armor heavy": Florida State Troopers maintained a barracks in south Orlando and the motor pool included a crisis response unit consisting of two LAV-150s. Likewise, the Orlando Police Department maintained two LAV-100s. Both are now in possession of the Brigade, traded in exchange for the Brigade's assistance and overwatch in keeping the city safe. But even more curious than these four armored cars are the two M113s. Three weeks and four days after TDM, these two vehicles (at the time in NASA emergency vehicle livery of white and pale green) arrived at the NTC carrying personnel and dependents from the now ruined Patrick AFB. The drivers had risked serious radiation exposure to retrieve the two APCs and escape the devastation to reach Orlando.

    While the Commando scout cars and HMMWVs operate regularly, the M113s are kept under wraps. Both have had pintle-mounted .50 caliber guns installed. While threatening radio propaganda from New America have directly mentioned the Commandos, they either choose to ignore or do not know about the M113s.

    Finally the Sunshine Brigade is in possession of a true treasure: a working helicopter. A single UH1 is based on the NTC grounds. The UH1 came from the Lockheed-Martin facility in East Orlando. It is still flightworthy as on the day of the initial strikes, it was in a specially designed hangar undergoing EW testing on the airframe, and was thus insulated from the EMP. Many of the personnel who stayed on with the Brigade are Army Aviation and thus there is no shortage of qualified crew. The UH1 has a door-mounted M134 mini-gun on the portside, and a sling-mounted M60 starboard. There is plentiful avgas at Herndon Municipal Airport, although it has to be trucked a few miles through hostile territory. New America sorely wants the aircraft intact, as well as the avgas, and attempts take Orlando have been mounted before. The Sunshine Brigade's mobility and resources have thus far won out, however.

    Be gentle, this is an alpha copy.
    THIS IS MY SIG, HERE IT IS.

    Comment


    • #77
      A lot of the units in the FL/GA area are assigned to Third Army/CENTCOM if they are Regulars or NATO reinforcement if they are Reserve/National Guard. Tampa, at one time, was CENTCOM headquarters. Hope this helps!
      The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.

      Comment


      • #78
        Part II

        Now that we have pretty well hashed out the Middle East, let's take a look at
        Korea.

        According to the American Combat Vehicle Guide, the Eight U.S. Army consists of:

        II Amphibious Corps
        4th Marine Division (23rd Marines only) [400 mne, 7 M60A3]
        5th Marine Division [2,000 men, 9 M-60A3]
        6th Marine Division (16 Marines only) [600 men, 4 M-60A3]
        II Corps
        7th Light Infantry Division (1st Brigade only) [500 men]
        26th Light Infantry Division [5,000 men, 13 LAV-75]
        45th Infantry Division [2,000 men]
        VI Corps
        2nd Infantry Division [2,000 men, 4 M-1]
        25th Light Infantry Division [600 men]
        41st Infantry Division [2,000 men]
        163rd Armored Cavalry Regiment [300 men, 4 LAV-75]

        or a total of 3,000 Marines and 12,400 Soldiers in nine divisions and one ACR.

        Anybody running any OOBs for the Korean Peninsula
        The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.

        Comment


        • #79
          Eighth US Army

          II Amphibious Corps
          3rd Marine Division [1,200 men, 5 M1]
          5th Marine Division [2,000 men, 9 M60A3]
          6th Marine Division [1,600 men, 8 M60A3]
          II Corps
          7th Light Infantry Division [1,500 men, 3 M60A3]
          23rd Infantry Division [1,500 men, 5 M1]
          45th Infantry Division [2,000 men, 2 M60A3]
          4th Armor Cavalry Regiment[500 men, 2 M60A3]
          VI Corps
          2nd Infantry Division [2,000 men, 4 M1]
          25th Light Infantry Division [1,200 men, 5 M60A3]
          41st Infantry Division [2,000 men, 3 M60A3]
          163rd Armored Cavalry Regiment [300 men, 4 M60A3]

          I feel that the 3rd Marine Division would of been committed to Korea before sent to the Middle East.

          Also replaced the 26th Light Infantry with the 23rd Infantry Division which would be formed in Japan before moving to Korea.

          The 4th Armor Cavalry Regiment would be new formation that would be rushed to Korea to give both Army Corps their heavy formation.

          Just some thoughts.

          Comment


          • #80
            For Korea, Australia might be able to send over one infantry Brigade which would likely be 9 Brigade. It's current IRL strength is only about 35% but given 12 months it should be ready for action. I picked 9 Bde because it contains the southernmost units in the country and most acclimatised. Most other units train in the tropics while at least 12/40 Bn and 16 Field Battery know all about mountainous terrain and sub zero temps being drawn from Tasmania.

            The heaviest armour is the 9 M113A1 MRVs (M113s with Scorpion turrets) although I'm tempted to add a troop of Leopard 1s.

            9 Brigade
            HQ 9 Brigade (Army Reserve)
            3/9 Light Horse (South Australian Mounted Rifles) (APC) (M113) (Army Reserve)
            M113 Regimental HQ Troop (M577)
            Sabre squadron, A (M113AS4 x14)
            Sabre squadron, B (M113AS4 x14)
            Combat Support Squadron (M113A1 MRV x9, M113AS4 x3)
            6/13 Field Regiment (Army Reserve)
            16 Field Battery (M2A2 105mm howitzer x6, Unimog 1700L LWB x6)
            48 Field Battery (M2A2 105mm howitzer x6, Unimog 1700L LWB x6)
            3 Field Squadron (Combat Engineers) (Army Reserve)

            144 Signal Squadron (9 Command Support Regiment) (Army Reserve)

            10/27 Battalion, The Royal South Australian Regiment (Army Reserve)

            12/40 Battalion, The Royal Tasmanian Regiment (Army Reserve)
            A Company
            B Company
            C (Training) Company
            Support Company
            Mortar platoon (F2 81mm Mortar x4)
            Heavy Weapons platoon (M60 SFMG x 6, M2 Carl Gustav x6
            Assault Pioneer Platoon (weapons as per rifle platoon plus specialist equipment)
            9 Combat Service Support Battalion (Army Reserve)
            Transport Company
            Health Company
            Supply Company
            Maintenance Company
            Logistic Support Company

            Still working on the orbat, but enough to get an idea of capabilities I think.
            The rest of the Australian forces (besides a handful of naval assets) would be fully engaged against Indonesia or occupied in civil duties.
            If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

            Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

            Mors ante pudorem

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Abbott Shaull View Post
              Eighth US Army

              II Amphibious Corps
              3rd Marine Division [1,200 men, 5 M1]
              5th Marine Division [2,000 men, 9 M60A3]
              6th Marine Division [1,600 men, 8 M60A3]
              II Corps
              7th Light Infantry Division [1,500 men, 3 M60A3]
              23rd Infantry Division [1,500 men, 5 M1]
              45th Infantry Division [2,000 men, 2 M60A3]
              4th Armor Cavalry Regiment[500 men, 2 M60A3]
              VI Corps
              2nd Infantry Division [2,000 men, 4 M1]
              25th Light Infantry Division [1,200 men, 5 M60A3]
              41st Infantry Division [2,000 men, 3 M60A3]
              163rd Armored Cavalry Regiment [300 men, 4 M60A3]

              I feel that the 3rd Marine Division would of been committed to Korea before sent to the Middle East.

              Also replaced the 26th Light Infantry with the 23rd Infantry Division which would be formed in Japan before moving to Korea.

              The 4th Armor Cavalry Regiment would be new formation that would be rushed to Korea to give both Army Corps their heavy formation.

              Just some thoughts.
              Or simply swap 3rd and 4th Marine Divisions. Intresting idea. As for an ACR, there was talk in some of the old Armor Journals about adding additional ACRs to the Army in the late 80's; the numbers they were talking was 6th, 10th and 14th. No idea if these were the planned numbers, but all three have been former ACRs through the 50s-60s...so, reasonable assumption would go for those three.
              The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Legbreaker View Post
                For Korea, Australia might be able to send over one infantry Brigade which would likely be 9 Brigade. It's current IRL strength is only about 35% but given 12 months it should be ready for action. I picked 9 Bde because it contains the southernmost units in the country and most acclimatised. Most other units train in the tropics while at least 12/40 Bn and 16 Field Battery know all about mountainous terrain and sub zero temps being drawn from Tasmania.

                Still working on the orbat, but enough to get an idea of capabilities I think.
                The rest of the Australian forces (besides a handful of naval assets) would be fully engaged against Indonesia or occupied in civil duties.
                So Australia might commit a brigade, reinforced by anything from New Zealand

                Don't see any British commitment, short of moving the 6th Division over from Chinese control when Eighth Army reached the Yalu River. We were reacing to get something meaningful for the MEFF.

                It is possible that Canada might furnish a battalion/brigade group, but we run into the same thing as far as force structure goes.

                A member of my local gaming group suggested Japan might furnish a division or two for Korea, aside from the issues with the Japanese constitution, there is also the memories for the Koreans of the last time the Japanese were on the peninsula so I really doubt any troops from that source....any thoughts
                The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by dragoon500ly View Post

                  A member of my local gaming group suggested Japan might furnish a division or two for Korea, aside from the issues with the Japanese constitution, there is also the memories for the Koreans of the last time the Japanese were on the peninsula so I really doubt any troops from that source....any thoughts
                  IMO, the Japanese could easily do that, and perhaps the Koreans have forgiven them enough to let it go, but are the ROKs really that hard-pressed From what little I've read, the South Koreans can handle the North Koreans in a straight-up fight. The two US corps may even be overkill
                  My Twilight claim to fame: I ran "Allegheny Uprising" at Allegheny College, spring of 1988.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Adm.Lee View Post
                    IMO, the Japanese could easily do that, and perhaps the Koreans have forgiven them enough to let it go, but are the ROKs really that hard-pressed From what little I've read, the South Koreans can handle the North Koreans in a straight-up fight. The two US corps may even be overkill
                    The problem is the Japanese Constitution, they are forbidden to dispatch military units outside of Japan. The unit that went to Iraq was a medical/engineer/security task force....and its deployment almost caused the fall of the government at that time, only its humanitarian mission saved it.

                    The deployment of a Japanese Destroyer to take part in the anti-piracy patrols also caused a lot of debate. The ROE it has to operate under is supposed to be the toughest one of any naval unit deployed, or so I'm told by a squid just returning from his reserve deployment there.

                    As for the ROK armed forces...tough little bastards by all accounts, discipline is high, training is strict and as realistic as possible...and the South Koreans outnumber the North Koreas by almost 2.5 to one, especially once all the reserves get called up. The sole purpose of the 2nd Infantry Division was as a symbol of UN/US commitment to maintain South Korea...at least in the timeframe of the game.

                    While I acknowledge that the North Korean goverment certainly marches to the beat of its own, insane drummer...would they try an attack on the ROK Their biggest supporter is China with only limited Soviet support. If anything, I would think that the PRK would try to maintain a more neutral stance, at least until they could see a clear winner in the Sino-Soviet match.

                    And that means why would so many divisions be committed to Korea when they are so badly needed elsewhere Food for thought...
                    The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by dragoon500ly View Post
                      The problem is the Japanese Constitution, they are forbidden to dispatch military units outside of Japan.
                      Sorry, I wasn't thinking clearly-- by "easily" I meant that they didn't have any pressing use for those forces on their own islands. I can't remember reading of any invasion there. {Probably lots of NK/Soviet commando hits, though.}

                      And that means why would so many divisions be committed to Korea when they are so badly needed elsewhere Food for thought...
                      Indeed. If anything, the ROKs could be sending divisions to the Chinese.
                      My Twilight claim to fame: I ran "Allegheny Uprising" at Allegheny College, spring of 1988.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by dragoon500ly View Post
                        Or simply swap 3rd and 4th Marine Divisions. Intresting idea. As for an ACR, there was talk in some of the old Armor Journals about adding additional ACRs to the Army in the late 80's; the numbers they were talking was 6th, 10th and 14th. No idea if these were the planned numbers, but all three have been former ACRs through the 50s-60s...so, reasonable assumption would go for those three.
                        Yeah I know I have heard of the 10th and 14th ACRs in the past.

                        Any ideas what the the Army plans were for their 6th and 21st Air Combat Cavalry Brigade. Did they have ground dismounts The reason I ask is that US Vehicle guide shows the 6th ACCB with an Artillery Battalion. I know the 6th ACCB was more of the active unit of the two Brigade while the other was filled from other units. Both were based out of Fort Hood, until the 6th ACCB was moved to Korea as part of the 8th US Army.

                        Then with this Brigade how did they compare to the Aviation Brigades such as the 11th and 12th Aviation Brigade that were based with V and VII Corps in Germany and the 66th Aviation Brigade which I recall was largely a NG/Reserve formation for I Corps. I am assuming the the 6th ACCB had similar role being assigned to the III Corps. Ironically I can't recall the XVIII Airborne Corps aviation brigade...

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          14th ACR was, I believe, the last active duty ACR on the books besides the ones everyone is familiar with (when 11th ACR's colors came out of Vietnam, 14th ACR in Europe was reflagged as 11th).

                          Personally, I'd scrap VI Corps entirely and put all the troops in theater under II Corps and II MAF. Army units can serve under USMC higher headquarters and vice versa without drama, has been happening regularly since way before the current modularity vogue.

                          I can't see 3rd MarDiv going to Korea -- the war is won or lost based on possession of Middle Eastern oil. If the North Korean screaming hordes overrun South Korea and do a lemming job right on into the ocean it really means very little in the big picture, but Soviet airborne forces dropping on Riyadh means folks in Iowa either start learning the words to Internationale or the war goes very nuclear very quick to stave off inevitable defeat.

                          In addition, there's unlikely to be any rush to saturate Korea with foreign forces in terms of the circumstances anyway. On full mobilization the ROKA fields something like 40 divisions in the Twilight timeline, with all the bells and whistles of Corps/Army assets and SOF units. As I've stated previously, 2nd Korean War won't be a replay of the 1st War, and the North Koreans won't be rolling hellbent for leather for Pusan with the only hope being US or UN forces. With the Russians churning through China they're not going to be able to spare large concentrations to help the North Koreans until China completely collapses (and even then their hands will be tied to an extent holding anything they try to keep).

                          A reinforcing role for US/UN forces would likely only come into play if the plan was to go over onto the offensive against the DPRK, with at least some intent to change the Chinese/Russian equation and pull some Russian troops off the Chinese. This only matters at all after the Middle East is secured and if Europe is relatively stable.

                          It is possible that Canada might furnish a battalion/brigade group, but we run into the same thing as far as force structure goes.
                          I think that was mentioned in the Challenge article about Canada, with a brigade group being readied for service in Korea getting diverted to Alaska. I don't see Canada going in for a two front war with the dual burden of battle casualty replacements for Europe and bringing their reserves into a workable state. And, in a universe where the Soviets have the capability to actually mount an invasion of Alaska, a Canadian brigade group being opconned to USARAK seems rather more likely than lobbing them across the Pacific to Korea.
                          Last edited by HorseSoldier; 03-20-2011, 12:06 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Currently Australia has only two Divisions, with the 2nd made up of about 99% reservists and the 1st about 30% (give or take). Neither is intended to be deployed as a whole.
                            9 BDE could have been sent to Korea even though likely needed at home to defend against Indonesian landing efforts in an attempt to bring the US on board at least diplomatically (yes, I am aware of the ANZUS treaty obligations) - the US teetering on the bring of abandoning the treaty due to their entanglement on multiple pre-existing fronts (Europe, Korea, Middle East). 9 BDE may have freed up US assets more suited to the tropics than the Australian brigade (perhaps a few warships, a squadron of fighters, etc).

                            It's a stretch I know, but I like the idea of Australians involved in both rounds of the Korean War. The Koreans make fairly good substitute Russians too for those back home interested in the idea of payback for nuking the world.

                            I don't know much about the New Zealand military, however my thoughts are they are more likely to be involved against Indonesia than Korea (ANZUS treaty obligations). Their FV101 Scorpions would prove a match against the fairly light armour of the Indonesians but chewed up and spat out by North Korean T-55s.
                            If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

                            Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

                            Mors ante pudorem

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              I'm not an expert on the NZ military either, although I am a Kiwi so I know where to look for info. From recent historical evidence, a large deployment out of NZ is unlikely. We simply don't have the capabilities to support a large operation out-of-country; we generally piggy-back off of others.

                              The way I see it, the first Asian front to kick off (say, Korea) would get some NZers, especially if Aus sent troops. First in would be the SAS, and probably a medical detachment, and some Hercs doing support work. If there was a larger need, regular troops would come a bit later (would likely need training and reserve call-up).

                              Then if Indonesia went off, much of that might get called home, or to Australia, to support from there. The Navy would lend some support, likely a frigate joining the Aussies. And we still had a combat airforce then, so No. 2 Squadron (upgraded Skyhawks) would probably be helping too (No. 2 was equipped with ex-Royal Aus. Navy A4s, and based in NSW, Aus. in the 90's).

                              All up, I would say a squadron of SAS, a battalion of regulars (after training), some support troops, a few Hercs, a frigate and No. 2 Squadron would all that would end up outside of NZ.

                              Oh, and we kinda got booted out of ANZUS over that whole "no nukes" thing Wonder if Marsden Point oil refinery received some attention nevertheless.....

                              Andrew

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Abbott Shaull View Post
                                Yeah I know I have heard of the 10th and 14th ACRs in the past.

                                Any ideas what the the Army plans were for their 6th and 21st Air Combat Cavalry Brigade. Did they have ground dismounts The reason I ask is that US Vehicle guide shows the 6th ACCB with an Artillery Battalion. I know the 6th ACCB was more of the active unit of the two Brigade while the other was filled from other units. Both were based out of Fort Hood, until the 6th ACCB was moved to Korea as part of the 8th US Army.

                                Then with this Brigade how did they compare to the Aviation Brigades such as the 11th and 12th Aviation Brigade that were based with V and VII Corps in Germany and the 66th Aviation Brigade which I recall was largely a NG/Reserve formation for I Corps. I am assuming the the 6th ACCB had similar role being assigned to the III Corps. Ironically I can't recall the XVIII Airborne Corps aviation brigade...
                                GDW dropped the ball on the artillery battalion attached to 6ACCB, the only place I could anywhere that even mentions doing this was an article in the Field Artillery Journal that talked about assigning a MLRS battalion to them for Deep Strike Missions. This is the only place this has ever been mentioned.

                                The make up of 6ACCB during the Twilight period was four "cavalry" squadrons (none of which had 6th Cavalry) that were renamed attack helicopter battalions. Unlike the 11th/12th Aviation Brigades which have General Support (OH-58C), a Combat Support (UH-60), a attack helicopter (AH-64) and a medium helicopter (CH-47) battalions.

                                III Corps for the REFORGER role was always intended as the counter attack force, thats why it had two armored divisions (1st Cavalry and 2nd) as well as the 6ACCB.

                                Evil Grin...the name of the XVIII Airborne Corps Aviation Brigade, is the 18th Aviation Brigade.....setup was the same as 11th/12th, but lacked the CH-47 battalion.
                                The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.

                                Comment

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