Something that always struck me odd,....

[dragoon500ly]

Was this when the Regiment still had the original M1 or had they already been upgrade to M1A1s

Interesting thing when I was in basic, I had got in argument with MS NG who would have swore their M177s at the time were M4 that were still in development stage. I bet if he was still in he would notice the difference now.

You know it like the old web bearing equipment with pistol belt, and either Y or H yoke with attachments. There was so much of it made, and even in the surplus system it took years for the MOLLE system to get authorized and then into the system. Almost 20 years from when it was first started to be introduced to units for testing.

Yeah we had mixture of M1911A1s and the Berrettas.

Well that were those recoilless rifles were misplaced. Knowing how the Military never gets rid of anything, I am sure their was ammo stored somewhere in Western Europe they could get ammo for it.

When the Deuce was converting from M-60A3 to IPM-1s, and even after the conversion, we still had a lot of the 105mm specialty ammo on hand (M-1 was supposed to fire only sabot and heat).

Right before we shipped the M-60A3s back to Mannheim, we fired our last gunnery with them and the higher ups in their infinite wisdom, released a lot of 105mm APDS warshots for the gunnery. According to Range Control, we actually shot better scores than the Canadian Cup team! It seemed that the warshots were a hell of a lot more accurate than the TPDS that is normally fired, too bad the tubes had to be replaced afterwards....but that had to be done by the depot!

[dragoon500ly]

Which is probably a good thing since you'd have probably been on the receiving end of similar "good stuff".

All to true! But one of the things that I enjoyed about service in Germany was when the Ammo Supply Point had lots expired, and you had a bored colonel or two.

Stateside, expired ammo is always shipped back to the depot to be either reworked or disposed of. Germany (and Korea) were the only two locations that went with the third option of allowing the troops to expend the ammo downrange. It wasn't done often (depends on how penny-pinching Congress was that year, I guess). But I've had the chance to fire 105mm APDS, HEP, Beehive and WP; Dragon ATGM and even expend Bangalore Torpedoes, and C-4 and one one glorious day, a 50kg cratering charge!!!

When we converted to M-1, there was a lot of hope in the squadron that we would be allowed to empty the ASP of all the old M-60A3 ammo...we only got to fire a APDS lot....the rest was shipped to units still using the ole Beast.

[Legbreaker]

50kg cratering Meh, did a 60kg crater on my initial explosives course... :P

Amazing sight though isn't it Watching the sky rain clods the size of a small motorbike down around you and the mushroom cloud go up, up, up and up until it's higher than the surrounding mountains.

Fun times.

[Abbott Shaull]

Depending on the MTOE, probably none in the T2K timeline (though the basis of issue for the HK CAW is an open question).

Real world, in the SF unit I was in we had about a million shotguns on the inventory. No idea who they belonged to on paper (ODAs versus support units, etc.) but in practice three per ODA for ballistic breaching and spares from there. In the current light cavalry unit I'm in we have (I think) eight for the troop authorized, though none on hand since shotguns are being issued above and beyond the authorized MTOE for conventional units down range, again for ballistic breaching.



Real world US military -- even white side SOF -- privately owned weapons downrange can be a career killing error, possibly even leading to criminal prosecution. I know some people whose careers in SF were essentially destroyed because they went downrange with personally owned sidearms that were better quality/better weapons than the M9 (well, because they got caught with them, anyway). Even the super cool kids on the black side do not, as far as I know, take stuff they bought themselves anywhere, they just are in units that have latitude to color further outside the lines on acquiring and issuing odd stuff.

T2K -- I think any unit with any motor transport to speak of would be a traveling bazaar of odds and ends, weapons wise. Guys who have to haul everything they own on their backs aren't likely to squirrel away a 9mm sub gun and a couple pistols and an AKSU and a nice 30-06 hunting rifle they happened upon along the way, but if you can chuck that stuff in the back of a truck or an APC it's wide open game on sort of stuff unless the command environment goes out of its way to discourage it.



Our shotguns were strictly used for breaching -- set up with pistol grips only, nothing but #9 birdshot or product designed breaching rounds loaded and carried, and shotguns carried on an empty chamber or an expended round still in the chamber at all times except when actively 'gunning a door. (That latter required SOP after a SEAL managed to shoot another SEAL in the clown shoes with a slung shotgun (loaded, safety off) during training -- yet another entry in the highlight reel for the Sleep Eat And Lift boys.)



Real world US military the only other people who drew from the Ammo Supply Point I got my bombs and bullets from with shotguns in the inventory were several MP companies. The Sergeant Major who ran the ASP frequently noted (as I was signing for several thousand rounds of #9 birdshot for breaching and 00 buckshot for fighting applications) that he was always amazed that you apparently couldn't pay those MP units to do anything with their issued shotguns at all. Literally most FYs they fired a grand total of zero rounds of shotgun ammo.

Which honestly makes sense -- civilian LE uses shotguns partly because of institutional conservatism and partly for liability concerns (rifle bullets having the external ballistics to accidentally kill someone quite a bit further downrange than shotgun pellets), but are increasingly switching to the M4 or similar patrol carbines. If you've got an M4 you don't really need a shotgun for any LE application (except, here in Alaska, putting down the odd moose or bear).

Well on the Civilian LE side of thing for many years the various SWAT and other Tactical units have used some versions of the M16, Uzi, and MP5 for several years. That little bank robbery in south L. A. with them wearing their home made bullet proof suites has lead to more of these weapons to find their way in the hand of the normal patrol officers. Still there plenty who still have shotguns too. Especially road patrol officers I can see them having both weapons, shotgun up front with them and the carbine/rifle/smg in the trunk.

As for light units in the t2k on the move, I am sure they would find a way to move their cache of weapons as well as all their other equipment to their new digs. The Mechanized/Armor/Motorized units have the advantage of having their regular vehicle on hand to help in the move.

Not saying that troops no matter if they regulars, Special Ops types, Reserve, or National Guard would deployed with unauthorized weapons, but as the fighting continues and the need for specialize weapons come to light. Some people will have light fingers and liberate what they need in the field. Where as WWII, Korea, and Vietnam it happen as soon as the troops were committed, in the t2k war I see it taking a tad longer for troops and their Commanders realize at times their authorize TO&E doesn't take into account all situations. Lot of the shotguns would be pick up due to the amount of MOUT fighting that unit would encounter. The Hunting Rifle would be pick up later say 1999 and later. As for pistols and SMGs, will they will be pick up at first as war bounty. Later they may come in handy.

Honestly by 1998 lot of the rules and regulation will start to erode due to the high volume of people who are now in jobs they haven't been totally trained for. Also with the number of sailors and airmen who are transferred to security and other combat units would probably bring all assortment of weapons along with them. A Command can try to complain and belly ache that the weapons belongs to them, but they wouldn't want to ship a troops unarmed to other posting either in t2k war. One where the enemy who at the start of the day were miles aways could show up at any time, under certain circumstances.

Just some thoughts.

[dragoon500ly]

50kg cratering Meh, did a 60kg crater on my initial explosives course... :P

Amazing sight though isn't it Watching the sky rain clods the size of a small motorbike down around you and the mushroom cloud go up, up, up and up until it's higher than the surrounding mountains.

Fun times.

Yours is bigger LOL!

Biggest one we ever set off was 200kg of C-4! Range Control wanted to clear the ruins of an old stone farm house on the Grafenwoher range...Germans gave the okay and instead of a local contractor taking six weeks...they turned it over to the 2ACR for a demo course....

Yup its certainly an amazing sight!!

[Legbreaker]

At the end of the two days on the range we strategically packed everything that was left into an old car body. Probably added up to about 80 kgs.
The car "went away".

[dragoon500ly]

Don't ya just love being able to get rid of old cars that way

Another deadly hazard that Range Control liked to get rid of were old washing machines, for some reason they couldn't get the local depot to except some worn out washers....so to the .50-caliber range they went...nothing like watching three crews trying to keep the drum rolling with a Ma Deuce!

One tank gunnery we got a load of Beehive rounds to expend. Now a Beehive is a timed explosive shell that is also packed with about 4,000 flechettes; it turns a 105mm tank cannon into the world's largest punt gun. The loader simple sets the fuze for whatever range is selected, loads and the round is sent downrange where it detonates and spreads its "screaming load of white-hot death".

We got the chance to go downrange and inspect our handiwork and were in for a major surprise. The flechettes, for the most part, didn't break up into their individual pieces. The bursting charge shattered the matrix holding the flechettes and sent them flying as large chunks of sharpnel. Our Range Control officer explained that this was the major reason why Beehive rounds were being removed from service; Ordnance couldn't fix the problem.

First and last time I've ever fired a Beehive, although the rounds stayed in the ammo supply point through 1986, some seven years after they were supposed to have been withdrawn.

[Abbott Shaull]

Oh come on. There is no such thing as being withdrawn, it just simply misplace/forgotten about. Gee, they wonder how a E-4 was able to afford a M2...lol

[dragoon500ly]

The ammo dump at Fort Know was a real treasure trove of stuff...when I was still AIing a M-60A1, got the chance to take a detail there to load up a stake bed...those hives had everything under the sun!!! 76mm (on hold for Denmark for their M-41s), 90mm and 105mm and even 152mm, long after the damn things were taken out of service (stocks for the 82nd I guess)!

[Sanjuro]

every British transport helicopter I have been in has had the crew with rifles as well as their pistols

AFAIK this goes back to the 1980s in NI, when the PIRA managed to shoot down their first helo. The crew made a successful forced landing, and were climbing out the wreckage when the PIRA team came over the hill towards them, carrying some combination of AKs, M16s and an M60. The crew looked at their issued weapons (Browning 9mm or Walther PPK, I don't know which) and decided not to hang around for the rescue/recovery helo...

[perardua]

AFAIK this goes back to the 1980s in NI, when the PIRA managed to shoot down their first helo. The crew made a successful forced landing, and were climbing out the wreckage when the PIRA team came over the hill towards them, carrying some combination of AKs, M16s and an M60. The crew looked at their issued weapons (Browning 9mm or Walther PPK, I don't know which) and decided not to hang around for the rescue/recovery helo...

Sounds about right. And with helos, it makes sense to carry a proper rifle. You've got the space, and if you end up on the ground you'll want something other a 9mm. I also understand that Apache crews load their rifle magazines wholly with tracer, the idea being that their wingmen will still be in the air and thus the downed crews can use the tracer to indicate targets if the enemy are taking too much of an interest in them.

[WallShadow]

The ammo dump at Fort Know was a real treasure trove of stuff...when I was still AIing a M-60A1, got the chance to take a detail there to load up a stake bed...those hives had everything under the sun!!! 76mm (on hold for Denmark for their M-41s), 90mm and 105mm and even 152mm, long after the damn things were taken out of service (stocks for the 82nd I guess)!

From a brief mention in the local paper at the time--Letterkenny Army Depot in southcentral PA was storing in some of its igloos captured weapons from our excursion in Grenada--AK's and lots of ammo. Supposedly it was to be destroyed. My thought was that in the Twilight universe it would be really handy if this relatively insignificant clump of munitions was forgotten in the hurly-burly of the onset of hostilities.
The locals might have gotten curious/desperate to arm themselves, and what should they come upon but an arsenal courtesy of the Soviet Union and Uncle Sam.

[dragoon500ly]

From a brief mention in the local paper at the time--Letterkenny Army Depot in southcentral PA was storing in some of its igloos captured weapons from our excursion in Grenada--AK's and lots of ammo. Supposedly it was to be destroyed. My thought was that in the Twilight universe it would be really handy if this relatively insignificant clump of munitions was forgotten in the hurly-burly of the onset of hostilities.
The locals might have gotten curious/desperate to arm themselves, and what should they come upon but an arsenal courtesy of the Soviet Union and Uncle Sam.

There was quite a bit of AKs and other assorted hardware captured on Grenada, a lot of it was issued to the various OPFOR units on the major bases for training. We always had AK, AKMS for range time, even had the chance to fire RPDs, RPKs, PKs and DShKs. OPFOR-Ft Knox had RPG7s with training rockets that they pulled out for some of the officer training courses.

Soooooo, there would be a fair chance to get hold of Soviet smalls arms and ammo on just about any Army base.

[Abbott Shaull]

LOL Yeah.