Just In: Osama is dead

[Targan]

I wasn't going to respond to dragoon500ly's characterisation of Islam but seeing as others are doing so I suppose I'd may as well.

There are fundamentalists in most religions, as well as very reasonable folk. I'm not personally religious but I don't begrudge others having faith. I do however get really p*ssed off at extremist and violent religious beliefs. And in my experience there are probably just as many Christian nutjobs as Muslim. Those freaks in the US that picket the funerals of fallen soldiers and scream on about America deserving to suffer for its sins are a great example.

[Mohoender]

I wasn't going to respond to dragoon500ly's characterisation of Islam but seeing as others are doing so I suppose I'd may as well.

There are fundamentalists in most religions, as well as very reasonable folk. I'm not personally religious but I don't begrudge others having faith. I do however get really p*ssed off at extremist and violent religious beliefs. And in my experience there are probably just as many Christian nutjobs as Muslim. Those freaks in the US that picket the funerals of fallen soldiers and scream on about America deserving to suffer for its sins are a great example.

As far as the only terrorist attack I ever escaped was performed by Christian, I can only agree. In 1988, over France, members a fundamentalist christian group launched a number of attacks in movie theaters showing "The last temptation of Christ". The first attack was made in a theater on St Michel square (Paris) and resulted in 14 people burnt to various degrees (I was supposed to be there and changed my mind while waiting in line, I was lucky that day). Another attack made one dead.

The most outrageous about this is that five people involved in the first attack were only condemned very lightly : jail with sursis (which means that they never ever got in jail) and a 70000$ fine (for all five). That fundamentalist group (AGRIF) is still in existence today. Yes I know justice is blind.

[95th Rifleman]

As far as the only terrorist attack I ever escaped was performed by Christian, I can only agree. In 1988, over France, members a fundamentalist christian group launched a number of attacks in movie theaters showing "The last temptation of Christ". The first attack was made in a theater on St Michel square (Paris) and resulted in 14 people burnt to various degrees (I was supposed to be there and changed my mind while waiting in line, I was lucky that day). Another attack made one dead.

The most outrageous about this is that five people involved in the first attack were only condemned very lightly : jail with sursis (which means that they never ever got in jail) and a 70000$ fine (for all five). That fundamentalist group (AGRIF) is still in existence today. Yes I know justice is blind.

It's similar for us Brits, we suffered for decades from attacks by the IRA (and the reprisals by the loyalist paramilitaries like the UVF) both sides where Christian.

We need to be wary of falling into the trap of assuming all Muslims are the same, this is EXACTLY what the terrorists want. They want the west to turn on their moderate islamic popuations, they want the moderates to feel threatened and persecuted so that they will join the extremist mindset.

[TiggerCCW UK]

It's similar for us Brits, we suffered for decades from attacks by the IRA (and the reprisals by the loyalist paramilitaries like the UVF) both sides where Christian.

We need to be wary of falling into the trap of assuming all Muslims are the same, this is EXACTLY what the terrorists want. They want the west to turn on their moderate islamic popuations, they want the moderates to feel threatened and persecuted so that they will join the extremist mindset.

Exactly! This is all they are trying to achieve - cause more division, fragment the opposition and garner new recruits from more moderate members of their faith/political persuasion by making the opposition treat them badly.

Here in NI it has long been said that the greatest recruiter for the Republican movement was Bloody Sunday. Likewise, after the Remembrance Sunday bombing in Enniskillen, the Loyalist groups gained an influx of recruits. This was all as a reaction to the actions of 'the other side'.

Likewise it does no good to stereotype a religion, race or political movement, although this it is much easier to say this than stick to it. I've personally experienced the stereotyping of both sides of the troubles over here. When I was living here in Belfast I would automatically be perceived as Loyalist/Protestant because of the part of the city I lived in, where I went to school etc. By the same token, when I went to England to uni I ended up getting scooped under section 12 of the prevention of terrorism act on suspicion of Republican sympathies - long story, but essentially I got lifted for walking while Irish. Suffice to say I wasn't a terrorist of either side (my then girlfriend's Dad was a senior RUC officer) but it did get me to thinking a bit more about things - certainly had the police mistreated me in any way I could have become more sympathetic towards the Republican side. It"s hard to do, but please try and treat everyone as an individual and try not to buy into propaganda about them or their beliefs.

[Legbreaker]

Having spent two weeks in a small car with a "normal" muslim (his day job was used car salesman), I feel somwhat qualified to comment. It was stated to me several times with all seriousness that Islam would take over the world by either stealth (conversions, etc) or force (full on military action, bombings and so on to kill all unbelievers). No preference was given for either and there was certainly no hesitation about the latter option.
It was the most nervous and uncomfortable two weeks of my life made even worse by them being armed, and me not.

[Abbott Shaull]

All I am going to say it doesn't matter if you believe is Jewish, a flavor of Christianity, or Muslim. Both Christianity and Muslim faith do discuss tolerance in their teaching of people who believe in other religions. They both also teach that you should try to convert the non-believers over to your religion in none violent mean.

The sad thing is population wise 1/5 or more depending on whose number you listen to is Muslim.

The sad thing lot of people who express they are of one of these three religions who express lot of hate. Regardless if it was in the past or the present. It all add fuel to the fire that keeps the hatred going.

[Mohoender]

Having spent two weeks in a small car with a "normal" muslim (his day job was used car salesman), I feel somwhat qualified to comment.

In fact, no : Testis unus, testis nullus. You had, however, an interesting experience that you wisely share. I had, for my part, numerous and much longer experiences with normal muslims and don't feel qualified at all.

I have friends in Tunisia, Algeria, Mauritania, Morocco, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia. I have met people (not firends this time) from all these countries plus a number from Pakistan and Asian muslim countries (not to talk of African muslim). One of my best friend is married to a Saudi (And I spent hours speaking with him about religion). I recently translated judicial material to help an english woman whose saudi husband stole her children. The lawyer, I and my ex-wife, had for our divorce was a Tunisian muslim. My step father has spent years in the muslim world. The public frenchman for whom I have the most respect is a muslim. Around my place, you have 13 muslim families (one fundamentalist, another one being fully successful with kids becoming lawyers, others being on the average, many being regular, some being a pain). I had met people from Harki, Berber and Arabic descent.

Still, I could brought up plenty of testimony, most contradictory. The only common ground between all these people is that, if they have faith, they won't tolarate that you attack the Coran. Actually, I have witnessed the same attitude from Christian and Jews.

Leg, If I had been you, I might have had a word with the police about the guy you met. If he went as far as what you describe (in his thinking), he could become dangerous or may be not.

[Legbreaker]

I forgot to mention he had been studying for years to be an Imam and knew the Qur'an backwards.
As an armed security guard he had been through the various police background checks too. He avoided coming out and saying anything specific, but the overall impression was that non-muslims were nothing more than animals unworthy of treatment as humans.

[Mohoender]

Then, you had a very interesting experience I never had with a fundamentalist muslim. From what you add here, that man is even more scary that what you say first hand.

The most impressive to me is that you could stand him two weeks. That qualifies you to comment fundamentalist but don't generalize to muslims.

[Legbreaker]

He most certainly did not come across as a fundamentalist in almost all ways. He backed up every statement with reasons and justifications which to many would have seemed quite reasonable.
But you're right, it was an exercise in EXTREME patience (the .38 on his belt probably had something to do with that though).

[Mohoender]

But you're right, it was an exercise in EXTREME patience (the .38 on his belt probably had something to do with that though).

That's a point, LOL

[95th Rifleman]

He most certainly did not come across as a fundamentalist in almost all ways. He backed up every statement with reasons and justifications which to many would have seemed quite reasonable.
But you're right, it was an exercise in EXTREME patience (the .38 on his belt probably had something to do with that though).

In my experience with American fundamentalists that they also back up every statement with reasons and justifications. I once spent several hours trapped with a rather sinister and scary American who proceeded to explain to me, in detail, how America is a country for Christians and that all gays, jews and muslims need to be converted or deported. This was in california which I am led to believe is one of the most liberal American states.

I think everyone can come up with personal, negaive experiences of other religions, hell i can tell a few tales of aggressive zionists (I walked into a few of them in oxford once saying that the palestinians where animals and should be wiped out).

But as I said the vast majority of people, of any faith, just want to be left alone to live their lives. The problem is these people don't attract attention, they just go about their lives like the rest of us. The minority who preach violence and fundamentalism get all the screen time and so people associate them as the majority.

[Targan]

I think everyone can come up with personal, negaive experiences of other religions, hell i can tell a few tales of aggressive zionists (I walked into a few of them in oxford once saying that the palestinians where animals and should be wiped out).

To me that is mind boggling. Of all the people in the world who should know better than that. Its like abused children who grow up to be child abusers themselves.

[headquarters]

I agree

It's similar for us Brits, we suffered for decades from attacks by the IRA (and the reprisals by the loyalist paramilitaries like the UVF) both sides where Christian.

We need to be wary of falling into the trap of assuming all Muslims are the same, this is EXACTLY what the terrorists want. They want the west to turn on their moderate islamic popuations, they want the moderates to feel threatened and persecuted so that they will join the extremist mindset.

well put

[headquarters]

anyways

I still think the moderates will dominate in the end.

Sure we will have problems with religious factions - some due to circumstance and some due to the people in them being intolerant or nutjobs..

We have our share up here too, but luckily, so far, knock on wood, violence has been almost non existence save the odd bloodied nose.

I seem to see a change in people in general - when they become parents. Many -not all of course - soften their beliefs and focus more on whats closer to the heart.

As the old Norwegian poem says about fatherhood and peace-

for he who carries on his arm an irreplacable burden,
cannot murder

( it rhymes well in our beautiful Norse tongue )

so - to peace and long FtF sessions