Worldwide weapony post-T2K

[Rainbow Six]

Although obviously only if the whiskey is spelt the correct way.....

Which is obviously without the e...

[TiggerCCW UK]

Suppress urge to slag the furniture polish that the Scots think is whiskey....

In fairness as single malts go, its hard to beat an Islay malt, or Glenfarclas 105 if you prefer a lighter flavour, but for an every day drinking whiskey, I was always a Jameson or Bush man.

[dragoon500ly]

LOL

Nothing beats Jack Daniels old number 7!

[Panther Al]

Except just about anything made in Scotland, or better yet, Ireland.




*says the guy with Black Bush and Clynelish in his cupboard*

[WallShadow]

To bring the thread back onto topic and meld the current subject of discussion, I think that honest-to-God backwoods homemade "shine" will outstrip any competitors as a beverage, a paint-stripper, or a lethal weapon!

[James Langham]

Sterling Armaments Company

As far as I have been able to tell, the Sterling Armaments Company was still in existence up to at least 1987 as that's when the final versions of the rifle where produced (hence it's designation of SAR-87). The rifle itself was a joint project between Sterling and Chartered Industries of Singapore (CIS) even though the primary work was done by Sterling as a result of their experience manufacturing the AR-18.

However, even though Sterling went out of business as such, it did not disappear. It was bought out by British Aerospace who also had control of Royal Ordnance. The designs were kept into the early 1990s when I believe BAe allowed CIS to buy the full rights to the rifle. CIS produced some upgraded versions as the Singapore Assault Rifle but dropped the design later and focused on the manufacture of the bullpup SAR-21 rifle.

It should also be pointed out that the apparent reason that BAe closed down the Sterling facilities was due to the UK government's belief in the 'peace dividend' from the end of the Cold War. Had the Cold War continued, it's highly unlikely the UK Govt would have shutdown as many military projects as it did, (many of which were canned simply to save money).
While this does not mean the SAR-87 would have been put back into production, it does suggest that the designs and tooling could have been kept rather than sold in their entirety to Singapore and thus been available for manufacturing the rifle when the Sino-Soviet conflict escalates.

Edit: As a side note, the Singaporeans had made an earlier rifle,the SAR-80. Once they got involved with Sterling, they produced the SR-88 based on the SAR-80 and the SAR-87. Neither of the Singaporean rifles made enough sales to remain in production.

I had a quick play round with the idea and came up with this:

SA80A2 and Stirling Armaments

The Gulf War of 1991 showed the deficiencies of the SA80 in sandy and dusty conditions. The SAS sergeant turned author Andy McNab commented that in the SA80 the British Army bought a Rolls-Royce, albeit a prototype Rolls Royce. The name itself also highlights the fact that SA80 stood for Small Arm for the 1980s, even though problems with the weapon resulted in the issue only late in the decade. The initial SA80 (known as the L85) was quickly superseded by the L85A1 which added a guard rail around the magazine release catch to stop the accidental release of the magazine (a problem increased by the use of the excellent sling which allowed the weapon to be slung across the chest).

In late 1992 after the results of the study instituted at the end of the war were published, it was decided to create an upgrade programme for the weapon. The preferred choice Heckler and Koch were unavailable as they were now ramping up production of the G11 and G41 for the German Army. In a job creation scheme, the British Government bought up the now defunct Stirling Armaments company and gave them the contract (this caused much resentment through the arms industry that the programme had not been open to competitive tender oe Royal Ordnance in particular were very upset and took the case to court oe this had not been resolved by the outbreak of war when Royal Ordnance were given a contract to produce further L85A2s).

Stirling made a number of changes to the basic design, these included a new stronger firing pin, heavier recoil springs, a heavier magazine with redesigned lips (although still STANAG compatible), a better gas plug (that eliminated the chance of getting it seriously stuck in the weapon if it was removed at the wrong angle), a new cocking handle with a unique comma shape and a strengthened safety catch bar. The same upgrades were also made to the L86A1 (LSW) creating the L86A2. The cadet forces rifle, the L98A1 was also rebuilt with the same changes, converting it from a manually cocked weapon to a semi-automatic only weapon, the L98A2. The L98A2 was (other than the lack of a change lever) an L85A2 in all but name. Conversions of all from A1 to A2 standard had only just started as war broke out although gradually the A1 type was supplemented and sowly overtaken by new production A2s.

In December 1996 with fighting in Europe reaching epic proportions, more rifles were needed, the L1A1 SLR and L2A3 Stirling were pulled from storage as were the 10,000 M16s bought in the early 1960s (the British Army had actually adopted the M16 before the US Army!). This still did not meet demand. It was originally suggested that Stirling Armaments would produce L85A2s and L86A2s. This would however have taken time to set up the tools as only the upgraded items were ready to be produced. As an interim measure the director of Stirling suggested that the production lines for the L2A3 and upgraded AR18 (the SAR87) that had been manufactured commercially until the company went bankrupt were reopened. The Ministry of Defence agreed immediately. The SAR87 was renamed the L18 rifle and put into full scale production. A modified AR18S was also put into low volume production with the same changes as the Carbine L19. These were basically AR18Ss that had been modified to take the STANAG magazine. It was also possible to swap the barrel, bolt and magazine and add a magazine housing adapter, to produce a 9mm submachine gun version of either (this was slightly modified from the original kit to take L2A3 magazines. These were known as the L18A1 and L19A1 respectively when fitted with the L172 conversion kit. Few of these were taken into service and most that were, were issued to Ministry of Defence Police. Numbers are however impossible to determine as the weapons could be converted into each other. Records of how many kits were bought were lost when the factory was destroyed. Many of the issued rifles went to home defence units (in some cases replacing the .303 No4 rifles that some had been issued during the rifle shortages) although there are instances of units being fully equipped with L18s (generally these were issued the L4A4 Bren as an LMG instead of L86s).

[Mohoender]

To bring the thread back onto topic and meld the current subject of discussion, I think that honest-to-God backwoods homemade "shine" will outstrip any competitors as a beverage, a paint-stripper, or a lethal weapon!

At last, someone with real taste.

[95th Rifleman]

I had a quick play round with the idea and came up with this:

SA80A2 and Stirling Armaments

The Gulf War of 1991 showed the deficiencies of the SA80 in sandy and dusty conditions. The SAS sergeant turned author Andy McNab commented that in the SA80 the British Army bought a Rolls-Royce, albeit a prototype Rolls Royce. The name itself also highlights the fact that SA80 stood for Small Arm for the 1980s, even though problems with the weapon resulted in the issue only late in the decade. The initial SA80 (known as the L85) was quickly superseded by the L85A1 which added a guard rail around the magazine release catch to stop the accidental release of the magazine (a problem increased by the use of the excellent sling which allowed the weapon to be slung across the chest).

In late 1992 after the results of the study instituted at the end of the war were published, it was decided to create an upgrade programme for the weapon. The preferred choice Heckler and Koch were unavailable as they were now ramping up production of the G11 and G41 for the German Army. In a job creation scheme, the British Government bought up the now defunct Stirling Armaments company and gave them the contract (this caused much resentment through the arms industry that the programme had not been open to competitive tender oe Royal Ordnance in particular were very upset and took the case to court oe this had not been resolved by the outbreak of war when Royal Ordnance were given a contract to produce further L85A2s).

Stirling made a number of changes to the basic design, these included a new stronger firing pin, heavier recoil springs, a heavier magazine with redesigned lips (although still STANAG compatible), a better gas plug (that eliminated the chance of getting it seriously stuck in the weapon if it was removed at the wrong angle), a new cocking handle with a unique comma shape and a strengthened safety catch bar. The same upgrades were also made to the L86A1 (LSW) creating the L86A2. The cadet forces rifle, the L98A1 was also rebuilt with the same changes, converting it from a manually cocked weapon to a semi-automatic only weapon, the L98A2. The L98A2 was (other than the lack of a change lever) an L85A2 in all but name. Conversions of all from A1 to A2 standard had only just started as war broke out although gradually the A1 type was supplemented and sowly overtaken by new production A2s.

In December 1996 with fighting in Europe reaching epic proportions, more rifles were needed, the L1A1 SLR and L2A3 Stirling were pulled from storage as were the 10,000 M16s bought in the early 1960s (the British Army had actually adopted the M16 before the US Army!). This still did not meet demand. It was originally suggested that Stirling Armaments would produce L85A2s and L86A2s. This would however have taken time to set up the tools as only the upgraded items were ready to be produced. As an interim measure the director of Stirling suggested that the production lines for the L2A3 and upgraded AR18 (the SAR87) that had been manufactured commercially until the company went bankrupt were reopened. The Ministry of Defence agreed immediately. The SAR87 was renamed the L18 rifle and put into full scale production. A modified AR18S was also put into low volume production with the same changes as the Carbine L19. These were basically AR18Ss that had been modified to take the STANAG magazine. It was also possible to swap the barrel, bolt and magazine and add a magazine housing adapter, to produce a 9mm submachine gun version of either (this was slightly modified from the original kit to take L2A3 magazines. These were known as the L18A1 and L19A1 respectively when fitted with the L172 conversion kit. Few of these were taken into service and most that were, were issued to Ministry of Defence Police. Numbers are however impossible to determine as the weapons could be converted into each other. Records of how many kits were bought were lost when the factory was destroyed. Many of the issued rifles went to home defence units (in some cases replacing the .303 No4 rifles that some had been issued during the rifle shortages) although there are instances of units being fully equipped with L18s (generally these were issued the L4A4 Bren as an LMG instead of L86s).

Now that is a work of genius mate.

[James Langham]

Thanks

Now that is a work of genius mate.

Thanks not 100% happy with it - for one thing I can't find a pic of a British soldier with an Ar18 to put with it.

Can anyone help or suggest and improvements

[Targan]

In defense of all concerned, I must say that the 'average' Kiwi in WWII should only be rated so highly because of the enhancement to the average made by the men in the Maori battalion.

Scary thought for the day - men of the Maori battalion vs. Ghurkas.

Just one of the many fundamental and important differences in the ways that the indigenous peoples of New Zealand and Australia were treated. Australian Aborigines came perilously close to being wiped from the face of the earth during the 1800s and the shattered survivors were literally wards of the state (legally speaking) even as adults until the 1960s when they were finally recognised with citizenship and voting rights. An appalling dark stain on Australia's collective soul. The situation in New Zealand was completely different. The Maori, as individual tribes and in large-scale united resistance, fought three major and dozens of minor wars with the British Empire during the 1800s and in the end were only defeated because they were outnumbered 20 to one and the Redcoats took to burning their villages and slaughtering their non-combatants.

The beginning of the end of the Maori Wars came with the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi under which the Maori were recognised as equal subjects of the British Empire and had all the requisite rights under the law. Then New Zealand became the first modern democracy to grant all adult citizens, male and female, the vote when it became an independent nation.

From even before independence Maori men were welcomed into the British Army and associated colonial forces. It's a very similar situation to the Nepalis - they excel at warfare, proved exceedingly difficult and costly to fully vanquish, they volunteer to wage war for you so you arm them, transport them to the vicinity of the enemy, point them in the right direction and give them heaps of room.

The 19th century Maori probably thought it was an excellent deal, being provided with firearms and ammunition to go kill people AND get paid to engage in their favourite hobby!

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The problem being that as far as anyone at the time could see, the Maori, the Zulu, the Afghanis, the Nepalese etc. etc. etc. all appeared to have an organized and relatively sophisticated culture whereas the Australian aborigines were still living a hunter/gather lifestyle that was essentially proto-neolithic.

As far as could be seen, they had no larger organization above the clan group and certainly paid little interest to other aboriginal groups except for potential wives or as competitors for resources. They produced nothing extra to the basics of daily subsistence.
The aborigines were incredibly primitive compared to every other group the British had come in contact with and this lead to the state of affairs known as Terra Nullius for Australia.

The fact that the aborigines had had no significant change in their culture or lifestyle for over 40,000 years meant they were ill-equipped to understand the concepts of warfare that the Maoris, the Zulu, the Nepalese and so on, so readily accepted. If the aborigines had been able to organize fighting units in a similar line with what the Maoris had, they probably would have been given similar status to the Maori. As it was, with the disdain Europeans had for the less cultured peoples of the world, the aborigines were seen as the most primitive of them all.

[Mohoender]

And we dare pretend to be civilized...

[Arrissen]

White Kiwis actually tend to be big solid farm boys decended from wild Celts like Scottish Highlanders. Besides, Anzac's are Anzac's. No need to go splitting hairs. They're all green in the army anyway and work happily side by side.

[Olefin]

Before this thread turned into a discussion on whiskey and if Aussies are Brits this was a very interesting discussion.

While it did get bogged down a lot in France there are other places that weapons could be obtained in the world post Twilight War that also merit discussion.

In the V1 timeline Japan is virtually untouched as are the Swedes. While the Japanese dont fare as well in V2 the Swedes stilll come out pretty good.

Both countries have indigenous weapon production factories that could be excellent sources of weapons post war. I could see the Swedes selling especially to the Germans, Danes, Norwegians and the Dutch and eventually the new Baltic nations and the Poles, whereas the Japanese could find customers in South Korea and China.

Another source for weapons could be Taiwan which was almost not even mentioned in the timeline. Again while most of their weapons were mods of existing vehicles you could see them being used to keep older systems going and providing a source of things like light tanks and APC's based on older American designs.

Finally another major source of weapons could be South Africa, which by virtue of the embargo on them by most of the world because of apartheid, developed their own tanks, APC's, planes, etc..

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Before this thread turned into a discussion on whiskey and if Aussies are Brits this was a very interesting discussion.

Cruel, but a fair comment on the derailment