Worldwide weapony post-T2K

[95th Rifleman]

There would definitely still have been a Challenger 2; whilst it didn't enter service until the 1990's, the origins of the programme go back to the second half of the 1980's, so it would have gone ahead regardless of whether the 1991 Gulf War had taken place or not.

I was referring to the Challenger 1 upgrade program, just after the gulf war several Challengers recieved various upgrades prior to the Chally 2 coming online. After the Chally 2 entered full production there was no need to upgrade the Chally 1 anymore.

Officialy the Chally 2 entered service in '98 but they began production in '93/'94 so I'm thinking that they would of been rushed into service when war became inevitable,perhaps enough to equip the BOAR

[95th Rifleman]

Re: your second point, in my T2K World I have the Duke of Cornwall receiving captured German weapons from a French arms dealer.

This just switched on a lightbulb. I's completely forgotten about Fance! They would of been in a superb position to build weapons and supply NATO nations post-exchange, at crippling terms favouring France. Having sat out the Twilight war their manufacturing capabilities would be able to produce such equipment and munitions.

It strikes me that (assuming France doesn't decide to take advantage and expand it's borders) they could come out of the Twilight war as a dominating political and industrial powerhouse post-2k.

Now what would be the likelyhood of France becoming an arms-dealer post-exchange and if they do, what would they build

[Raellus]

I don't think France would sell weapons and ammo to the NATO nations until well after the war was over. I see relations between France and Germany as being very frosty (especially after French occupation of German territory in the Rhineland). I would imagine that the other NATO countries that stuck with Germany and fought the Soviets would not feel particularly inclined to do business with France. I would imagine that the UK might also feel a little threatened by them.

I just had a thought that perhaps why the Germans wanted the U.S. forces out, but wanted to keep their AFVs and HW, was not so much to guard against the remaining Soviet forces in Poland (they seem to be pulling out and going home or disintigrating into scattered marauder bands in the spring of 2001), but to guard against the rising power of France.

[Rainbow Six]

I was referring to the Challenger 1 upgrade program, just after the gulf war several Challengers recieved various upgrades prior to the Chally 2 coming online. After the Chally 2 entered full production there was no need to upgrade the Chally 1 anymore.

Officialy the Chally 2 entered service in '98 but they began production in '93/'94 so I'm thinking that they would of been rushed into service when war became inevitable,perhaps enough to equip the BOAR

Sorry mate, picked you up wrongly - I thought you meant there wouldn't be a Chally 2.

In the V1 timeline I could definitely see the Chally 2 coming into service earlier than it did IRL. How much earlier is, I guess, open to debate, and I can't locate any production figures to indicate how many vehicles could be produced per month. For myself, I opted to have five Chally 2 Regiments at the start of the war, with the other MBT Regiments using Chally 1 and Chieftains relegated to the ubiqutous "storage". As the War goes on, Chieftains are pulled from storage and new Chally 2's continue to be manufactured until the nuclear exchanges (Chally 1 production stopped circa 1990 or thereabouts), so chances are by the end of 1997 a typical RAC MBT Regiment could have a mix of Chieftains, Chally 1's and Chally 2's.

Incidentally, wikipedia makes reference to an SPAA platform based on the Challenger platform

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_Marksman

Whilst it appears to be a "what if" sort of thing, wonder if anyone thinks it's likely that it might have been picked up by the UK or others in a continuing Cold War

[95th Rifleman]

If WW2 is anything to go by, it can be expected that a whole series of variants based on obsolete tanks to fulfill battlefield roles would appear over the courseof the war.

I would expect to see tank chassis in all nations become modified, especialy after damage. If you can salvage a tank with a fragged turret then it's easier to replace the turret than rebuild/repair.

Two ideas I toyed with ina campaighn was a kangaroo variant of the chieften which elaced the turret with troop carrying space in a similar fashion to the WW2 kangaroos and a variant of the chieften that replaced the gun turret with a missle system for the Milan.

[95th Rifleman]

I don't think France would sell weapons and ammo to the NATO nations until well after the war was over. I see relations between France and Germany as being very frosty (especially after French occupation of German territory in the Rhineland). I would imagine that the other NATO countries that stuck with Germany and fought the Soviets would not feel particularly inclined to do business with France. I would imagine that the UK might also feel a little threatened by them.

I just had a thought that perhaps why the Germans wanted the U.S. forces out, but wanted to keep their AFVs and HW, was not so much to guard against the remaining Soviet forces in Poland (they seem to be pulling out and going home or disintigrating into scattered marauder bands in the spring of 2001), but to guard against the rising power of France.

Tha's an interesting what-if for the end of the twilight war. If France decided to expand and take advantage of post-war europe, there isn't a hell of allot that could stop them.

[Rainbow Six]

I tend to agree with thepoints Raellus has put forward concerning the French supplying NATO. Quite apart from anything else, by the start of 1998 France has invaded the territory of two NATO members (West Germany and the Netherlands), so one could argue that under Article 5 of the NATO treaty, was at war with NATO (although personally I think that the realpolitik of the global situation at the time means that the UK, US, and others would choose to conevniently forget about Article 5).

Either way though, I think Rae's right - relations are going to be frosty at best. Also, those countries are going to be limited as to what they can offer as payment. In referring to French allies earlier, I was really meaning members (and prospective members) of the Franco Belgian Union. If the FN facilities at Liege are intact, then I think the French are in an excellent position to become a major (perhaps even the dominant) arms trader for many years after the War. One possible area of trade outwith the FBU might be with Spain and Portugal.

I still can't find anything to confirm one way or the other what Liege's fate was. Did the map in Going Home go that far west

[Rainbow Six]

Tha's an interesting what-if for the end of the twilight war. If France decided to expand and take advantage of post-war europe, there isn't a hell of allot that could stop them.

Agreed. For what it's worth, my T2K UK has a fair amount of French meddling going on, all in the interests of keeping the UK destablised (and thus less able to pose any threat to French interests) for as long as possible. As well as the Duke of Cornwall, the French have also covertly supplied arms to Scottish separatists.

[95th Rifleman]

I still can't find anything to confirm one way or the other what Liege's fate was. Did the map in Going Home go that far west

I'm inclined to assume they got hit. Fabrique Nationale was a huge supplier to western nations ad had to be on the Soviet target list. It would be crazy not to target it.

[Rainbow Six]

I'm inclined to assume they got hit. Fabrique Nationale was a huge supplier to western nations ad had to be on the Soviet target list. It would be crazy not to target it.

Yeah, it would make sense wouldn't it...

Mind you, a couple of minutes digging around the web also came up with Nexter (formerly GIAT)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nexter

Their official website...

http://www.nexter-group.fr/index.phpoption=com_content&view=frontpage&Itemid=1&lang=en

Apparently the FAMAS rifle is manufctured in St Etienne...

[Raellus]

I wonder if the Germans got any American tac-nukes when most U.S. forces left north-central Europe during Omega...

With the U.S. XI Corps remaining in N.W. Poland as a bulwark against further Soviet aggression, and a west-leaning Free Polish Congress presumably cooperating with -or, at least not actively working against- Germany would be better placed to address the territorial incursion of the Franco-Belgian Union. I assume that a national German priority would be taking the Rhineland back at some point. With American material support, they could at least start thinking about doing so. IF they inherited a couple of tac-nukes, their position would be a little stronger. Still, it's advantage France, but Germany would be in better shape strategically than they had been before Omega.

[Fusilier]

I wonder if the Germans got any American tac-nukes when most U.S. forces left north-central Europe during Omega...

The Germans would have already had tactical nuclear weapons once hostilities* broke out for their Pershing missiles.

The warheads were kept by the US due to legal reasons in bases in West Germany, but were to be dispersed to the 2 West German Pershing Wings in wartime. The

NATO also kept a percentage of aircraft in reserve designated for nuclear weapons delivery - I am not sure if the Luftwaffe were originally included in this tasking, but if they were, then that is another source of weapons.


* Obviously not the initial hostiles with liberating East Germany, but rather once NATO became involved.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

As far as I have been able to tell, the Sterling Armaments Company was still in existence up to at least 1987 as that's when the final versions of the rifle where produced (hence it's designation of SAR-87). The rifle itself was a joint project between Sterling and Chartered Industries of Singapore (CIS) even though the primary work was done by Sterling as a result of their experience manufacturing the AR-18.

However, even though Sterling went out of business as such, it did not disappear. It was bought out by British Aerospace who also had control of Royal Ordnance. The designs were kept into the early 1990s when I believe BAe allowed CIS to buy the full rights to the rifle. CIS produced some upgraded versions as the Singapore Assault Rifle but dropped the design later and focused on the manufacture of the bullpup SAR-21 rifle.

It should also be pointed out that the apparent reason that BAe closed down the Sterling facilities was due to the UK government's belief in the 'peace dividend' from the end of the Cold War. Had the Cold War continued, it's highly unlikely the UK Govt would have shutdown as many military projects as it did, (many of which were canned simply to save money).
While this does not mean the SAR-87 would have been put back into production, it does suggest that the designs and tooling could have been kept rather than sold in their entirety to Singapore and thus been available for manufacturing the rifle when the Sino-Soviet conflict escalates.

Edit: As a side note, the Singaporeans had made an earlier rifle,the SAR-80. Once they got involved with Sterling, they produced the SR-88 based on the SAR-80 and the SAR-87. Neither of the Singaporean rifles made enough sales to remain in production.

[Targan]

It strikes me that (assuming France doesn't decide to take advantage and expand it's borders) they could come out of the Twilight war as a dominating political and industrial powerhouse post-2k.

It strikes you Well yeah, that's exactly what happens in canon. I take it you've never read the Traveller: 2300 timeline

[atiff]

It strikes you Well yeah, that's exactly what happens in canon. I take it you've never read the Traveller: 2300 timeline

Where can a good timeline for this be found on the Net I've looked before without much success...