OT; The Longest Day

[mikeo80]

Airforce strength D-Day

Did some reading on the D-Day operation. As we have seen the land and sea forces were extrordinary.

The Allied Air Forces did their part as well:

11,590 Aircraft used in support of D-Day, 14,674 sorties being flown.

As part of the Airborne Assault:

2395 aircraft and 867 gliders.

Thank God for the unsinkable Aircraft Carrier "H.M.S. United Kingdom".

Mike

[ShadoWarrior]

Your post about the about the air forces reminded me that the Discovery Channel recently aired an excellent 2 hour show titled "Surviving D-Day" that detailed why so many men died on Omaha. Every bomb dropped by the allied air in the early morning behind the beach with the intent to destroy the German arty missed. Then there was the matter of 27 out of 29 Sherman DDs sinking, leaving the troops with no gunnery support against the pillboxes. The list of problems goes on and on. It was a miracle that any GIs survived at all.

[dragoon500ly]

The reason why the bombers missed their targets is so simple its stupid.

The Eighth Air Force was requested to fly along the coast, dropping their bomb loads, if the bombers missed their primary targets, the bombs would still hit the beach, creating craters that could be used for cover and still have a good chance of damaging obstacles and rattling the beach defenders.

Eighth Air Force decided WITHOUT CONSULTING ANYONE ELSE that this would involve too high a risk to the troops, they made the decision to fly over the beaches and delay 1-2 seconds in order to hit their targets. The bombadiers, afraid of hitting the ships in the Channel, delayed a further 2-3 seconds. Talk about missing the target by a country mile!

After action reports with the ground troops cited the medium bombers of the Ninth Air Force with providing better and closer support.

[dragoon500ly]

Not to lessen the significance of D-Day, but the Battle of Okinawa had a larger battle fleet (1300 ships, including more than 40 aircraft carriers, 18 battleships, and 200 destroyers) and even had more troops (182,000 vs. 175,000 for D-Day). I haven't been able to find a count of landing craft for the 5th fleet, but given the number of troops, it had to be roughly as many as that on D-Day. There were more self-propelled floating objects in the English Channel than at Okinawa (mainly because of all the civilian vessels pressed into service), but the fleet at Okinawa was a hell of a lot more powerful, hard as that may be to comprehend given how big the D-Day fleet was.

The main difference between the two battles is that the Japanese didn't contest the landings, in contrast to how bloody Omaha beach was (and, to a lesser extent, the other four zones). And the D-Day invasion, as you pointed out, represented more nations than just the US and British Commonwealth.

Don't forget that major elements of the fleet were conducting raids on Japan and providing distance cover in case of any sortie by the remains of the Imperial Navy. That removes the fleet carriers, the fast battleships and their escorts and support ships. The real heros of the Okinawa naval battle was the gun line of old battleships; the escort carriers providing CAS and their escorts. They were tied to a certain distance from the island and had to bear some of the heaviest kamikaze attacks of the war.

Its also worth noting that the Battle of Okinawa resulted in the heaviest losses of WWII for the USN.

[dragoon500ly]

For the Normandy Campaign; the allies committed a total of 39 divisions broken down as follows:

INFANTRY: 13 US, 8 British and 2 Canadian
ARMORED: 6 US, 4 British, 1 Canadian, 1 French and 1 Pole.
AIRBORNE: 2 US and 2 British

The Allied Air Forces fielded:

8th Air Force: 1,947 heavy bombers and 961 fighters
9th Air Force: 467 medium and 156 light bombers and 1,123 fighters
Bomber Command: 1,183 heavy and 97 light bombers
2nd Tactical Air Force: 67 medium and 146 light bombers and 831 fighters
Air Defense of Great Britain: 796 fighters

a grand total of 3,130 heavy bombers; 534 medium bombers; 399 light bombers and 3,711 fighters.

The Allied Navies committed a total of 7 battleships, 2 monitors, 23 heavy and light cruisers, 93 destroyers, 15 sloops and 142 escorts as well as 4,308 landing ships and craft, 514 DD tanks and 2,583 DUKWs.

The Germans opposed this force with 5 SS Panzer and 5 Panzer Divisions; 1 SS and 2 army Panzergrenadier Divisions; 35 Infantry Divisions, 2 Parachute Divisions and a Luftwaffe Field Division.

[ShadoWarrior]

The Germans opposed this force with 5 SS Panzer and 5 Panzer Divisions; 1 SS and 2 army Panzergrenadier Divisions; 35 Infantry Divisions, 2 Parachute Divisions and a Luftwaffe Field Division.

35 infantry divisions seems excessive. Are you counting the units directly engaged against the Allies in the Normandy AO, or those in all of France

[dragoon500ly]

The Divisions that served in the Normandy Campaign were
Panzer: 1st SS, 2nd SS, 2nd, 9th, 9th SS, 10th SS, 12th SS, 21st, 116th and Panzer Lehr.

Panzergrenadier: 3rd, 15th and 17th SS

Infantry: 2nd, 3rd, 16th, 17th, 47th, 48th, 49th, 77th, 84th, 85th, 89th,
91st Airlanding, 226th, 243rd, 245th, 265th, 266th, 271st, 272nd, 275th,
276th, 277th, 326th, 331st, 343rd, 344th, 346th, 348th, 352nd, 353rd,
363rd, 708th, 709th, 711th and 716th

Parachute: 5th and 6th

Luftwaffe Field: 18th

Of the 35 infantry divisions, five were still using the old nine battalion/3 regiment TO&E, the rest had been converted to the new six battalion TO&E.

[LBraden]

Well, I still chuckle at this, I am not 100% certain of its authenticity, but that during the invasion itself, the Luftwaffe only fielded 2 ME-109's.
If anyone can check that for me.

But yes, I was actually working on doing some 1/72 scale Normandy battle scenes a few years ago, but financials put a stop to that.

[dragoon500ly]

By June 6, the Luftwaffe had been shattered by Allied airpower, losses were so high that the decision had been made to consolidate its remaining strength to defend the Reich. Daylight operation was limited to attacking the daily bombing runs of the 8th Air Force.

During D-Day two and only two Fw-190s made an attack on the British beaches. According to reports the two pilots hedge-hopped, made a single strafing run destroying (reports vary) from 3-9 trucks and then fled the beach area.

Luftwaffe operations against the beaches took the form of night-time harrasement raids conducted by Ju-88s. Several ships were damaged with at least three being sunk. Extremely heavy Allied flak as well as night fighters were credited with preventing more intense attacks, that as well as murderous low-level fighter sweeps on any German airfield within range of Normandy.

The Kriegsmarine also provided a dismal performance on D-Day, an early morning sweep by S-Boats (torpedo boats) resulted in the sinking of a Norwegian destroyer. U-Boats made several attacks in the weeks following, but intensive ASW efforts kept them from any major success during the critical build-up period. They were able to sink some cargo ships and one transport.

Compared to the heavy resistance put up by the Heer, the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine's efforts were simply too little, too late.

[dragoon500ly]

A German Infantry Battalion, 1944 Infantry Division was organized and equipped as follows: 15 officers and 693 Enlisted. Armed with 122 pistols, 127 SMGs, 477 Rifles, 43 LMGs, 12 HMGs, 6 81mm mortars and 4 120mm mortars. Transported by 5 motorcycles, 8 trucks, 17 bicycles, 165 horses, 92 horse-drawn carts and 57 trailers.

A US Infantry Battalion, 26 Feb 44 TO&E: would have 35 officers and 836 Enlisted. Armed with 81 pistols, 219 carbines, 544 rifles, 27 .30-cal BARs, 6 .30-cal LMGs, 8 .30-cal HMGs, 6 .50-cal HMGs, 3 57mm towed antitank guns, 29 bazookas, 9 60mm mortars and 6 81mm mortars. Transport was provided by 34 jeeps, 2 3/4-ton weapons carriers, 4 1 1/2-ton trucks and 30 trailers.

As you can see, while smaller overall, the Germans had more automatic weapons as well as heavy mortars for support. You may also notice that the German battalion does not have integral antitank support, this was provided by the issue of Panzerfausts as a round of ammunition, rather than as a dedicated weapon like the antitank guns and bazookas of the Yanks.

Contary to Hollywood depictions, SMGs were not normally issued to the infantry, they were more commonly issued to the armored and armored infantry units. In the German Army, they were primarily squad leader weapons (this allowed the squad leader to control his weapons rather than joining in on the fighting, at least until things got up close and personal).

[dragoon500ly]

During the War, the Germans issued three types of combat rations to their troops:

Marschverpflegung or March Rations: this was a cold ration issued for not more than 3-4 consecutive days to units in transit either by carriers or by foot. It contained about 700gms of bread, 200gms of cold meat or cheese, 60gms of bread spreads, 9gms of coffee or 4gms of tea, 10gms of surgar and six cigarettes, total weight was about 980gms.

Eiserne Portion or Iron Ration: This consisted of 250gms of biscuits, 200gms of cold meat, 150gms of preserved vegatables, 25gm of coffee and 25gms of salt. Total weight was about 825gms.

Grosskampfpacken or Combat Package: A simple ration issued to front line troops engaged in combat. It consists of chocolate bars, fruit bars, hard candies, cigarettes and biscuits. Total weight is about 650gms.



The US also issued three types of combat rations to its troops:

C-Ration: This consisted to two M (Meat) cans and two B (Bread) cans. There was not a wide selection in the meat, basically corned beef hash, meat and beans, meat and vegatables and meat and noodles, all were throughly hated by the troops. The Bread Ration was a dozen or so crackers, a fudge or cookie disc, a powdered drink (grape, orange, lemon or cocoa) or premixed cereal. Also issued was an accessory pack that contained several sheets of toilet paper, salt, sugar, powdered coffee, chocolate-covered peanuts or hard candy and a wooden spoon.

D-Rations: The so-called Logan Bar (also referred to as Hitler's Secret Weapon), is a small highly concentrated chocolate bar containing cocoa, oat flour and skim milk powder. It weighs 4oz, but provides 600 calories. Normally packaged in 4-bar packs, it is an emergency ration not a treat!

K-Rations: The most widely issued and best known ration of the war. This was packaged in three meals, labeled breakfast, lunch or supper. Breakfast consisted of a fruit bar, powdered coffee, sugar, crackers, a premixed cereal bar and a small can of ham and eggs. Lunch contained a small can of cheese (American, Swiss or American with bacon), crackers, orange or lemon drink powder, sugar, chocolate or other candy and chewing gum, Supper was a small can of potted meat or Spam, crackers, powdered coffee, sugar, chocolate or other candy and chewing gum. All three had an accessory pack that held 9 cigarettes, a book of matches, a pack of toilet paper and a wooden spoon.

And now you know why Germans and GIs would go out of their way to forage any kind of food other than the issue crap!

[Adm.Lee]

Contary to Hollywood depictions, SMGs were not normally issued to the infantry, they were more commonly issued to the armored and armored infantry units. In the German Army, they were primarily squad leader weapons (this allowed the squad leader to control his weapons rather than joining in on the fighting, at least until things got up close and personal).

I haven't seen any confirmation of this, but I read once that the squad leader had an SMG, with tracer loads, to help direct the fire of the MG34/42.

[dragoon500ly]

I've heard the same stories, but considering that the SMG does not have any where near the range of the LMG.

Based on the research I've done over the years...

The primary weapon of the German rifle squad was its LMG (MG34 or MG42 on its bipod), the rifleman were there to carry extra ammo cans and provide close range defense of the LMG. If the squad suffered crew losses, then riflemen would man the LMG. The squad leader's issue of a SMG makes sense in this case, because of its short range firepower advantage, it also kept the squad leader out of the firing line and focused on using his issue binos to direct and monitor the LMGs fire.

Another German practise was to open fire with the LMG at the longest possible range. This would give them the chance to inflict heavier losses in the opening of the engagement. It would also alert other nearby MG crews and create the chance for interlocking MG fire. More than one veteran tells stories of being pinned down under the fire of 3-4 MG42s and any offensive action stopped dead in its tracks.

The US, in keeping with the misguided notion that "Every American is a Rifleman" stressed long range, precision markmanship with the rifle. Endless hours were spent on the rifle ranges teaching soldiers to scan for targets, get set up for that perfect shot and then making each round count. This is also one of the reasons that the BAR was kept for as long as it was (face it, as a LMG the BAR suffered from low rate of fire, small magazine capacity and lack of a changeable barrel, not to mention the poor placement of the mag making reloading difficult). German practise was for the rifleman to engage within 200 meters. US rifleman, routinely practised at 600 yard ranges (and to qualify for the Expert badge, and that extra $5.00 a month, you had to hit 6 out of 8 tries at 700 yards).

US machine gun tactics were reflections of some of the worst practises of the French. Machine gun crews were taught to withhold their fire until the enemy was close in and then try to overwhelm them with sustained auto fire. This tatical (mis)use is reflected by the very small numbers of machine guns in US units. A rifle company, for example would have two machine guns (and nine BARs).

As US Infantry units gained experienced with the Germans, many units started to "acquire" extra automatic weapons in an effort to try to match the German firepower advantage. Veteran units such as the US 1st Infantry Division would often have as many as four BARs in a rifle squad, not to mention a .30-cal or two at the platoon level, a practise that senior generals made every effort to stop.

General Patton, among other combat officers, trained his Third Army infantry in the technique of marching fire, exploiting the advantage of the Garand's semiautomatic fire. The tactic was simply that as the riflemen formed their skirmish line, every other man would fire as his left foot hit the ground, alternating their fire as each man moved forward and thus keeping a steady fire on the enemy.

One thing that always turned up in German after-action reports was the need to maximize cover and concealment when fighting the Americans. The Germans respected the marksmanship of the US soldier, and especially their ability to hit targets at long ranges.

NOTE: The US Army was always picked up a lot of its practises during the 1890s-1930s from either the Germans (logisitics and staff) or the French (combat arms) From the French, for example, the US picked up the use automatic rifles vs machineguns, dedicated grenade launchers and the large size of its rifle squads.

The idea of always having an officer as a platoon leader is also French. The Germans for example, relied on careful training of its NCOs and then picking the best to become officers. A German rifle company, would have a company commander and an executive officer (who also commanded the 1st Platoon), that was it two officers total. A US rifle company would have its CO and XO, and a platoon leader for each of its four platoons...not to mention a little practise of assigning assistant platoon leaders so that a rifle company could have a minimum of six officers and as many as ten!!!

[Adm.Lee]

I've heard the same stories, but considering that the SMG does not have any where near the range of the LMG.

Well, if he's merely indicating, "shoot over THERE", I don't think the squad leader needs accuracy.... Maybe it was one of those prewar ideas that sounded neat on paper.

Based on the research I've done over the years...

The primary weapon of the German rifle squad was its LMG (MG34 or MG42 on its bipod), the rifleman were there to carry extra ammo cans and provide close range defense of the LMG. If the squad suffered crew losses, then riflemen would man the LMG. The squad leader's issue of a SMG makes sense in this case, because of its short range firepower advantage, it also kept the squad leader out of the firing line and focused on using his issue binos to direct and monitor the LMGs fire.

Another German practice was to open fire with the LMG at the longest possible range. This would give them the chance to inflict heavier losses in the opening of the engagement. It would also alert other nearby MG crews and create the chance for interlocking MG fire. More than one veteran tells stories of being pinned down under the fire of 3-4 MG42s and any offensive action stopped dead in its tracks.

My experience with good ol' Squad Leader backs you up. The MGs are the versatile tool that must be mastered.

[dragoon500ly]

Well, if he's merely indicating, "shoot over THERE", I don't think the squad leader needs accuracy.... Maybe it was one of those prewar ideas that sounded neat on paper.



My experience with good ol' Squad Leader backs you up. The MGs are the versatile tool that must be mastered.

The whole issue with the SMG/tracer is that it wastes too much time...I spot the target; I unlimber the SMG, point it in the direction and fire a burst; perhaps the gunner is engaging another target and didn't notice my burst...you get the idea.

But since the SL was almost always near the LMG...simply turning and yelling "American soldiers at two o'clock, behind the stone wall!" would certainly be much easier, not to mention faster.

Now there was a GAME!