British Infantry Rifles

[Rockwolf66]

Is it the PP or the PPK

Also the Welrod silent bolt action pistol.

It's the PPK in .22 long rifle

[pmulcahy11b]

Also the Welrod silent bolt action pistol.

Last known use of the Welrod was by the SAS in the Gulf War. Amazing how those old suckers can hold out.

[Rockwolf66]

Last known use of the Welrod was by the SAS in the Gulf War. Amazing how those old suckers can hold out.

I visited the Force recon camp at pendelton in 1999 and they still had supressed High Standard Pistols in their armory. At the time I thought that it was front heavy for a .22 pistol.

[James Langham]

It's the PPK in .22 long rifle

I just have a mix of sources showing PPK or PK in 7.65. My guess is both are used.

[James Langham]

Last known use of the Welrod was by the SAS in the Gulf War. Amazing how those old suckers can hold out.

My favourite is the Sten Mk IIS used in Vietnam!

[Rockwolf66]

I just have a mix of sources showing PPK or PK in 7.65. My guess is both are used.

Maybe, the sources I'm using are "The Operators" by James Rennie and personal conversations with another vetran of Northern Ireland who I am not naming because of both privacy and security issues.

[HorseSoldier]

I visited the Force recon camp at pendelton in 1999 and they still had supressed High Standard Pistols in their armory. At the time I thought that it was front heavy for a .22 pistol.

Also in use with Army SF up until the 9/11 timeframe. I think all the examples floating around were Vietnam vintage, or so I was told (they were gone by the time I showed up in '04 or so, but only recently).

[dude_uk]

So by 1998 your looking at something like-

British 'regular' army and TA equipped with the SA80/LSW, but augmented by the minmi and UGL as an essential war purchase.

Regular reserve- Those earmarked to reinforce British forces abroad get SA80. Those who do not get the L1A1

'Home defence' units- Those General service units (GSU's) and home service force get whichever they are issued.

With regards to sterling making AR-18's rather than further SA80's, isn't possible with the contract to fix them another attempt at flogging them around the world could occur With it coming a limited production line Might as well try to make some money out of it.

Also what about webbing By the Gulf war PLCE is in full swing for replacing pattern '58. Pattern 58 being skipped and by '97 the entire army equipped with it. Do L1A1 7.62mm magazines fit in PLCE' pouches

Good document though!

[James Langham]

So by 1998 your looking at something like-

British 'regular' army and TA equipped with the SA80/LSW, but augmented by the minmi and UGL as an essential war purchase.

Regular reserve- Those earmarked to reinforce British forces abroad get SA80. Those who do not get the L1A1

'Home defence' units- Those General service units (GSU's) and home service force get whichever they are issued.

With regards to sterling making AR-18's rather than further SA80's, isn't possible with the contract to fix them another attempt at flogging them around the world could occur With it coming a limited production line Might as well try to make some money out of it.

Also what about webbing By the Gulf war PLCE is in full swing for replacing pattern '58. Pattern 58 being skipped and by '97 the entire army equipped with it. Do L1A1 7.62mm magazines fit in PLCE' pouches

Good document though!

Some SLRs abroad - 2nd line main (as per the Gulf).

Will probably add a note about A2 sales attempts but really there is little new manufacture, I see Stirling as just doing upgrades.

Vast amounts of 58 in warehouses reissued. PLCE is main webbing for regulars although chest rigs and assault vests making an appearance (more of the former than the later). Biggest problem with reissuing 58 was squaddies hanging onto 58 belts as they were superior to the plastic one.

SLR mags wont fit in early PLCE with dividers in the pouches. Improvisation using a water bottle or utility pouch as an ammo pouch would be common (these were designed so that they would fit as some rear troops just used one (double) ammo pouch). 58 pouches fit but are awkward with the yoke.

[HorseSoldier]

Are the L85 PLCE mag pouches doubles or triples

You can get two FAL mags in an American ALICE 3x30 5.56mm mag pouch, but you'd want to stuff the bottom with a spare field dressing or two to make them easier to retrieve. I'd imagine the same would be true with PLCE pouches. (The American ALICE 3x30s had dividers as well. Most everyone cut them out as soon as they were issued back in the day.)

Improvisation using a water bottle or utility pouch as an ammo pouch would be common (these were designed so that they would fit as some rear troops just used one (double) ammo pouch).

Water bottle/canteen pouches are definitely good ammo pouches. Vietnam era US troops used them preferentially to the issue mag pouches, as they could hold more mags with reasonable retention and were quicker to get into (US pouches being open topped -- am I remembering right that PLCE has a lid). They'd also be a good deal for anyone having to make do with an AK or other alternate weapon using non-STANAG mags (including L1A1s).

[Legbreaker]

We were able to get three SLR mags in the Steyr mag pouches - it's a squeeze but it can be done.
The ideal though was to use the 200 round minimi pouch for the 20 round 7.62 mags.
FYI, 100+ rounds of 7.62 will fit in the minimi pouch. It's not perfect and stretches the pouch well out of shape, but it's better than holding it in your hands....

[James Langham]

Are the L85 PLCE mag pouches doubles or triples

You can get two FAL mags in an American ALICE 3x30 5.56mm mag pouch, but you'd want to stuff the bottom with a spare field dressing or two to make them easier to retrieve. I'd imagine the same would be true with PLCE pouches. (The American ALICE 3x30s had dividers as well. Most everyone cut them out as soon as they were issued back in the day.)



Water bottle/canteen pouches are definitely good ammo pouches. Vietnam era US troops used them preferentially to the issue mag pouches, as they could hold more mags with reasonable retention and were quicker to get into (US pouches being open topped -- am I remembering right that PLCE has a lid). They'd also be a good deal for anyone having to make do with an AK or other alternate weapon using non-STANAG mags (including L1A1s).

The PLCE ammo pouches that are issued are a double pouch with each holding 3 magazines. Early versions had dividers that were removed by later versions. They are easy to remove with a knife anyway. Commercially there are also singles and triple pouches available.

Sounds as if SLR mags might fit after all (I don't have one handy to check).

PLCE water bottle pouches do have a lid, many squaddies however use the entrenching tool pouch for a water bottle (it is a perfect fit but you can't carry the mug).

58 webbing will hold 4 x STANAG mags, 5 if you force them in making them hard to remove. A common trick with 58 webbing was to get cardboard or plastic inserts to keep the pouch rigid, mainly for parades but sometimes in the field.

ALICE pouches fit on both PLCE and 58 webbing but slide around.

[Legbreaker]

ALICE pouches fit on both PLCE and 58 webbing but slide around.

Where there's a will...
Whenever I needed new pouches, or simply had the opportunity to go over gear what was being returned to the Q-store, I'd take the oldest, rustiest clips I could find. The newer plastic ones were ok if you needed to modify your webbing fairly regularly, but there's nothing like a decent bit of rust to keep things in place.
Electrical tape and baling wire also have plenty of uses on webbing and even a bit of scrim wedged strategically into place can help firm things up.

In my opinion, a soldiers webbing should receive nearly as much care and attention as their weapon - webbing that comes apart or slides around in combat is at best a serious nuisance and at worst can get you killed.

[Ramjam]

I cheated on my webbing. I pot riveted all the pouches to my belt and to each other. The buggers never came off after that and it was a nice fit without anything bouncing around.
As has been said, where there's a will there's a way.

[Legbreaker]

I know a few people who did that but thought it wasn't the best idea as it meant you couldn't change your webbing easily if you were suddenly handed the machinegun and needed to carry belts instead of mags.