Are European handguns rubbish?

[Caradhras]

Just a quick question from one who has no idea.

I was reading Debt of Honour (Tom Clancy) and a CIA agent needed a handgun and could only get one from a Russian. It was some low calibre affair (22 or less) which his was not happy with..fair enough. But the charachter makes some statement to his friend in the realms of 'the europeans dont know how to make handguns'. I find this hard to believe and thought - I know some people who will know for sure

[dragoon500ly]

Nope!

Europe has long been home to some of the world's finest firearms designers (and one European company, Beretta, is not only the oldest firearms company, but is the oldest company). I'm afraid that Clancy is a tad "mistaken".

[Panther Al]

On the subject of European handguns:

SiG, HK, Browning, FN, Walther, Berretta, Hammerelli... Yep. They don't know handguns...

[Raellus]

I would hazzard to say that the Europeans make more high quality handguns than anyone else in the world. Panther Al's list says it all (and don't forget Glock).

Perhaps the character was referring to Russians, specifically. Their handguns are weak, to say the least.

[simonmark6]

He might have been commenting on how difficult it is to purchase a decent handgun illegally in Europe. Many of the under the table arms dealers are Russian and generally sell things like the Baikal, a gas firing pistol converted to 9mmP and coming with a dodgy silencer. By all accounts those aren't great guns.

It's not totally accurate, however, a mate of mine is a Police Inspector dealing with gun crime in this area. The last arms dealer they arrested was carrying a couple of Kalashnikovs, several re-activated Ingrams, three .357 Colts as well as a selection of 9mm autos. By all accounts the crappy .22s and Saturday Night Specials are entry level shooters with anyone but the sixteen-year old wannabes take whatever they can get.

All of this is still very dangerous, in the UK you can get shot dead for having a piece of wood in a plastic bag. Just possessing an illegal gun carries a sentence that is longer than murdering someone. Other European countries are similarly draconian.

That said, you'd expect a CIA agent to have better contacts.

[dragoon500ly]

Hummm, there is one handgun that does make you wonder just what the designer was thinking....the P9S is a decent little pistol, but the mag release is on the bottom of the grip....little hard to do a rapid mag change!

I'll stick to my old Colt Mark IV Series 70......

[natehale1971]

Brad Thor's first book Lions of Lucerene (sp) has his main character in Swiss Confederation hunting for the kidnappers of the President. And he needed a gun but couldn't buy a real one... so he bought an airsoft pistol of the pistol he really wanted to get... because he felt the appearence of hving a gun was better than not having a gun....

[Panther Al]

I would hazzard to say that the Europeans make more high quality handguns than anyone else in the world. Panther Al's list says it all (and don't forget Glock).

Perhaps the character was referring to Russians, specifically. Their handguns are weak, to say the least.

I am trying very hard to forget Glock... Oh, and add Steyr to the list of great pistols as well.

Hummm, there is one handgun that does make you wonder just what the designer was thinking....the P9S is a decent little pistol, but the mag release is on the bottom of the grip....little hard to do a rapid mag change!

I'll stick to my old Colt Mark IV Series 70......

Mag releases on the bottom of the grip is a very european thing: Goes along with what we consider a pistol is supposed to be used for and what they think:

For the Americans, Pistols are a combat tool: meant to be used in combat with the goal of killing as many people as fast as possible using a minimum of ammo. Hence, the magnums, the .45's, etc...

For the Europeans, Pistols are secondly a back up weapon for when the shit has well and truly hit the fan, and primarily as an Officers weapon; a status symbol more than a combat tool. A holdover from when officers came from an official Officer (or Noble- sometimes the same thing) class. Hence, Mag capacities are typically lower, as well as the use of lighter ammo compared to the US. Hence, the .32's, .380's, the 9mm's, etc... They don't want a heavy rugged massive pistol: something nice and light is much easier to tote around if they never plan on using it in the first place.

Of course, thats just my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions... and to be fair, Europe is coming around to the US point of view on pistols.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

There's also the possibility that Clancy was using that statement to illustrate some aspect of the CIA agent's personality/character. That is to say, perhaps the agent was written as being biased against European firearms and just made the sort of statement that you hear often enough about car marques.

Like everyone here as mentioned, the Europeans do make some pistols that range from fine to outstanding but as Panther Al specifically stated, it just took the Europeans some time to realize that pistols are more than just status symbols or authority symbols.
Other current/former European pistol makers include: -
Astra
Benelli
CZUB (AKA CZ) - The CZ75 in particular
Korriphila
Korth
MAB
Mauser - Who hasn't seen the C96 AKA Broomhandle Mauser for example
Sphinx
Steyr
Star
Tanfoglio

[Raellus]

I am trying very hard to forget Glock... Oh, and add Steyr to the list of great pistols as well.

Have you had a bad Glock experience

I really like my Glock 19. It's light, easy to maintain, a pleasure to shoot- and it cost hundreds less than an H&K or SigSauer. I wanted a Walther P99, but apparently, they stopped making/selling them in the States a couple of years ago. I'm actually rather pleased that I decided to go Glock. They're so common that both factory and aftermarket parts and accessories are easy to find and relatively innexpensive. It's the gangbangers and nutters that use them that give them a bad rap.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Have you had a bad Glock experience

I really like my Glock 19. It's light, easy to maintain, a pleasure to shoot- and it cost hundreds less than an H&K or SigSauer. I wanted a Walther P99, but apparently, they stopped making/selling them in the States a couple of years ago. I'm actually rather pleased that I decided to go Glock. They're so common that both factory and aftermarket parts and accessories are easy to find and relatively innexpensive. It's the gangbangers and nutters that use them that give them a bad rap.

I think his response may be due to several instances where either poor training on/understanding of the Glock safety mechanism resulted in unauthorized discharges by people who should have known better or (the more likely of the two I think), where several Glock pistols have been found to be poorly manufactured and resulted in pistols blowing themselves apart in the users hand.
I don't recall if the destructing pistols were ones manufactured in Austria or at the Smyrna, Georgia factory in the US.

[Panther Al]

In all honesty: Yes, the Glock is a good pistol: I might even go as far to say its an outstanding pistol. But I do have my reasons, but for the most part really are not on point.

I'm a huge Steyr fan: I loved my Steyr GB. It is one of the two pistols that first nodded in the direction of combat pistols in that it had a large (18 Rd) magazine capacity (The other was the HK VP70, though for a different reason, also, having owned one of the *fun* versions, I can tell you from personal experience the trigger pull is horrible). It had its issues. Mainly because Steyr screwed up by letting Rogak build them. But once Steyr took over, its star was in the ascendent. As the first hi-cap 9mm, it was destined for greatness, except a year or so later some goofballs came up with this plastic thing called a Glock, and well...

Losing the Austrian Army contract - the GB was considered a shoo-in due to capacity, and the fact that it is a very soft shooter - to Glock put the nail in its coffin.

Thats one reason, the other is that I had the misfortune to have a Glock fail on me at a very unpleasant and unfortunate moment. Not a dig on the design: even Ferrari makes a lemon every now and then. And lets face it, a full auto glock is just pure fun.

The occasions when they was first being purchased by law enforcement and the users shot themselves with unfortunate regularity is a training issue: not fully the fault of the design - mostly. I don't like the trigger at all and how they are taken down. But thats all personal.

As to the list, yeash. How did I forget CZ. There is a company that never gets the props it is due.

[95th Rifleman]

I am trying very hard to forget Glock... Oh, and add Steyr to the list of great pistols as well.



Mag releases on the bottom of the grip is a very european thing: Goes along with what we consider a pistol is supposed to be used for and what they think:

For the Americans, Pistols are a combat tool: meant to be used in combat with the goal of killing as many people as fast as possible using a minimum of ammo. Hence, the magnums, the .45's, etc...

For the Europeans, Pistols are secondly a back up weapon for when the shit has well and truly hit the fan, and primarily as an Officers weapon; a status symbol more than a combat tool. A holdover from when officers came from an official Officer (or Noble- sometimes the same thing) class. Hence, Mag capacities are typically lower, as well as the use of lighter ammo compared to the US. Hence, the .32's, .380's, the 9mm's, etc... They don't want a heavy rugged massive pistol: something nice and light is much easier to tote around if they never plan on using it in the first place.

Of course, thats just my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions... and to be fair, Europe is coming around to the US point of view on pistols.

Depends on point of view I guess.

Up until recently the British army has used the FN Browning, a 9mm weapon that has a 13 round mag. Compare that to theold American 1911 which was a .45 and only carried 7 rounds.

Today the british use the SIG 226 which is another 9mm with a 15 round mag. American went with the M9 to replace the 1911 which is a 9mm Berretta 92 with a 15 round mag.

Seems to me that America is actualy coming around the the European point of view on handguns, not the other way around.

[HorseSoldier]

Looking at the actual list of pistols made by European countries, it's hard to think of what Clancy is driving at -- Glock, Sig, FN, etc etc etc.

I could see expressing dissatisfaction with Russian pistols, specifically -- they're still trying to figure out the concept of a fighting handgun as far as I can tell, but Western Europe got on that bandwagon in the 60s to 80s, depending on firm and specific design.

[Panther Al]

Depends on point of view I guess.

Up until recently the British army has used the FN Browning, a 9mm weapon that has a 13 round mag. Compare that to theold American 1911 which was a .45 and only carried 7 rounds.

Today the british use the SIG 226 which is another 9mm with a 15 round mag. American went with the M9 to replace the 1911 which is a 9mm Berretta 92 with a 15 round mag.

Seems to me that America is actualy coming around the the European point of view on handguns, not the other way around.

Hrm... 50-50 on that. Yes, we went with the 9mm. Not too happy about that, but I do like the mag cap that it allows. I really do think that if the .40 existed, it would have been a good compromise chambering for NATO use. Not a fan of the 9: Decent round, but not really a man stopper. I agree that the .45 is a bit much for a lot of shooters. And the size holds back the mag cap. I don't think it was the right call, we should have stuck with the 45, but... I agree that when you consider all the reasons, going to the 9 was a reasonable choice.

Now: If I had to pick a pistol that would be the only one I would ever have, can't trade, sell it, get another of any kind, nor have easy access to parts

Browning HP all night long. Even over the 1911. The 45 is hard on parts, over the years it wouldn't hold up as well as the High Power would with its lighter 9mm loads.