Are European handguns rubbish?

[HorseSoldier]

As far as Europeans making "crap" handguns....No more than any other global arena of arms manufacture, and by and large a hell'uva lot less.

+1. At my last unit we had a few Norinco clones of the Sig 226 in our arms room as part of our foreign weapons training/familiarization set (no idea why Chinese Sig clones and not the real thing). If I remember right, the double action on the triggers actually gauged at something like 32 pounds, and were just gritty and miserable in single action, even though the trigger pull was more reasonable.

The Korean issue 9mm's (DP-somethings, I'm not remembering the full nomenclature right now) weren't too bad. Not my first choice for a pistol, but I'd take one over a Mak or it's Polish or Czech equivalents any day.

[Sanjuro]

Confused about the Beretta M9

Griff, can I draw you out about the Beretta M9 I fired the original 92S on which it was based (long before the UK handgun ban), but again only on a firing range.
Unfortunately I no longer have the book with the reference, but I remember reading about "The Great American Pistol Test" carried out in the late 1970s.
From memory, the 92S was adopted primarily for reliability- in the entire 10,000 round test it only had 5 stoppages!
Is it reliability or accuracy which is the problem in the real world If reliability, is it just the difference between testing on a firing range and combat conditions, or is it because of problems in manufacture specific to the US version
I have also just read a Wikipedia article which refers problems with ammo more powerful then the NATO standard 9mmP, and with non-Beretta made magazines.
Please note this post is in no way a contradiction of yours, just an opportunity for me to learn a little more.

[dragoon500ly]

Perhaps this can help, I was in the service when the great 9mm test was held.

Please note that I mentioned 9mm specifically. You see the decision to follow NATO's lead and move to 9mm was made in Congress as part of the policy to standardize as much as possible with NATO, this was the birth of the STANG magazines, the switch to 120mm and yes, the switch to 9mm. From a viewpoint of trying to streamline NATO's screwy supply system, it made sense. It still does.

When the decision was made to seek a replacement for the M-1911A1, there was no doubt that it would be a 9mm. The testing phase was designed to get the best choice. Each submitting designer had to submit 1,000 pistols from a CURRENTLY in production model. The Army would then randomly select 100 pistols and fire 10,000 rounds each in four different tests. Bids would then be taken from the final three and that would determine who would get the contract.

The final three choices came down to Beretta, SIG and Smith & Wesson. The lowest bid was Beretta. There was a bit of sour grapes about this and Smith & Wesson lobbied Congress, stating that the bidding process wasn't followed, that Beretta had reliability issues and that Beretta did not have a US plant (they actually did, in Maryland) and S&W was able to force a retest.

S&W failed the retest, miserably.

And that was the end of the matter.

My local sheriff departments used M92S for several years before switching to Glocks. There is a story of three deputies getting into a shoot out with a couple of crack heads. Two of the deputies used M92s and the third, getting ready to retire, still carried his old Colt .357 Magnum Python. In the shooting report, the 9mm deputies fired a total of 38 rounds of 9mm, hitting one suspect in the arm. The old wheel-gun deputy fired two rounds, hitting both suspects in the upper chest and killing them.

As has been mentioned previously in this thread, it really comes down to what you the shooter, have the most confidence in.

[pmulcahy11b]

Having never fired either an M9 or an M1911A1 at an actual person, all I can work on is range work and "war stores" of vets. As far as the range, both have comparable accuracy, and the M9 is better in quick reloads. The M1911A1 has better natural pointing qualities and just has a more solid feeling that inspires confidence in your weapon

I've heard stories out of Iraq, Afghanistan, and the local Air Force SPs and the MPs on Ft Sam who say that it's nice to have double the rounds, but you're more likely to need them since the 9mm round doesn't have the stopping power of the .45 and more insurgents, Taliban, and Al-Qaida these days are wearing body armor. It can take three or four rounds sometimes to take down an insurgent who's full of adrenalin -- more to inflict enough blunt trauma damage to stop someone who's wearing body armor (or, if you're good and lucky, aimed shots to the head or extremities). A .45 will inflict more blunt trauma damage on a person wearing body armor -- the game rules really don't do it justice -- if you get hit by a 9mm and you're wearing body armor, you will probably get away with a giant bruise. After a hit with a .45, you'll have a giant deep-tissue bruise, and bruised or possibly cracked ribs, and you'll get the wind knocked out of you.

The MPs also tell me that the .45 round is much more likely to bring down someone who is hopped on drugs, even those on PCP or meth.

One of my ROTC instructors, MSG Chinn, remembered an incident when he fired an M1911A1 at a Vietcong. He almost missed, but got him in the right hand. The hit from the round knocked him down, with his hand leading the way, whereupon MSG Chinn (then SGT Chinn) shot him one in the body and that was that.

It might be telling that our special ops troops are getting new .45 handguns, and have taken the M1911A1s out of storage until they have enough. They have more confidence in the .45 round to put someone down.

The .45 ACP also has another advantage -- it does not require an overly-complicated silencer if that sort of work is needed, and is quieter than most rounds in this role. It also doesn't lose much power when fired through a silencer. The .45 ACP is already subsonic, and it fires a big, heavy bullet.

[95th Rifleman]

There is a big difference between law enforcement and military.

In the military your pistol is a last resort weapon if you somehow don't have a nice, nasty assault rifle/SMG to hand.

In law enforcemeny the other guy isn't a combat trained, battle armour wearing soldier (you hope!) so I'd imagine a heavier calibre, man-stopper would be much more favourable. I don't understand why so many American plice departments went 9mm when the .45 is allot better in police engagements.

Military requirements are so very different afterall.

[B.T.]

In the German media there are reports from time to time, telling about incidents, where evil-doers could not be stopped by 9mm pistols, because the opponents were, as Paul and several others have mentioned, full of adrenaline and did not fall in the moment, when they were hit. Some pals of mine, that are police members, know about such incidents. But you do not read about it in the media all to often.

Another thing to mention: The .45 ACP is an option, that seems to be increasingly important in the world-wide Special Operaton branches. The Hecker & Koch USP is available in .45 ACP. Here in Germany we are not well informed about the situation of our troops in A'stan, but it is rumoured, that the KSK (Kommando Spezial Kr$fte) use the HK USP in .45 ACP.

The .45 pistols were not in widespread use in Germany, but the police agencies in the parts of Western Germany, occupied/controlled by the US*, used them in the years after WW II. As far as I know, most of them were replaced in the 50ies.

*No offense intended! How do you call the "Besatzungszonen" Is "occupation zone" the correct term

[bobcat]

occupation sounds about right historically. the U.S tends to stay in places we invade fair and square. but hey at least we don't bill for the rebuilding.(still not sure if thats a good thing or a bad thing being a tax payer...)

[Mohoender]

Am I wrong or isn't the US army using an european designed handgun as its regular handgun A beretta's crap of sorts.

[bobcat]

Am I wrong or isn't the US army using an european designed handgun as its regular handgun A beretta's crap of sorts.

yes the berretta is crap and yes we are stuck with it thanks to some crooked politics.

[Panther Al]

Ooookay.

The Berretta 92 is actually one of the better pistol designs out there. Its reliable, durable, and fairly accurate. As far as the competition for the M9 contract, it was bettered by the P226 from SiG, but Berratta won it because they was willing to take a hit on cost of support, which made the overall cost per weapon cheaper than the others. Honestly, I don't like the Berretta, the SiG is much better, but it was a fair competition that was won on cost basis, not performance.

All that said, it shouldn't have won. The 226 was the better pistol in every category save cost. Now, I can't really fault the Army for saving a buck, its a habit the government needs to get into, but it is what it is.

Now to the issues bandied about regarding the M9.

Slide separation. In September of 87, a civilian 92B pistol being tested by the SEAL's did have frame separation at where the locking block slips into the slide. It did launch off the back, and hit the guy in the face. The Army, when testing, again, civilian 92SB's, had 3 do the same thing. This time, we have round counts: 23,310, 30,083, and 30,545 on the last. The failures was in the same place, and after testing, it was discovered that the metal used in the Italian slides did not meet the specs of the M9 Contract. Now, the M9 contract stipulated that all M9's have to be built in the US, and the US Slides are made of a metal that does meet the specs, and no failures of US Built slides have ever come up.

Magazines. Now this is a valid issue. The original specified coating for the mags was spec'd out with Europe in mind. Phosphate coatings, while good for that environment, don't react well with dust and sand. The original production batches was made in Italy by Mec-Gar. Oddly enough, it proved to be cheaper for them to produce the magazines with a more expensive coating, one that held up well against dust and sand. But the ones made by Checkmate are Phosphate coated as the spec requires. And thats where the mag issue comes up. Now, the Army saw the problem, and has addressed it. Currently, Airtronic has the contract for (I am not sure on this number, but I know I am close) a million new ones, made to the specs that Mec-Gar used. And those that have arrived have proven to be as good as the originals.

[dragoon500ly]

It always seems to boil down to the quality of the magazines, even the much beloved .45 has problems with crappy magazines. And going by my own experience in the green machine as well as watching the local shooters, most people never bother to clean or maintain their magazines.

I remember one civilian shooter with a Kimball .45 having issues with jamming, his round would fail to chamber and be stuck, rim still in the magazine. His issue was shooting Winchester .45 ammo (how a company so famous in American history produce such lousy ammo is beyond me) and an utter failure to maintain his mags (bent feed lips).

When I looked over his mags every one had bent or otherwise deformed lips. Poor guy was flabbergasted when I disassembled his mags, did a little surgery with a pair of pliers, cleaned the things of the carbon build-up and then reassembled and fired a string. Almost every problem that I've seen with semiautomatic pistols can be traced to magazines or poor ammo.

[headquarters]

European vs US handguns vs other makers

Kind of an impossible question to answer really - yes some are crap either in design, production quality or both - some are not. This goes for any product anywhere - the US included.

Think of the vast number of clones available out there. Also think of the kinship many - if not most modern handguns share. ( Much like bolt action rifles and the Mauser system)

Many designs are copied /licensed abroad. Take the CZ75 ,made in China as well as in the US by Springfield.

The M1911 too - in Norway we made them under license from 1914 - 1947 or so. ( Yes - some were made by the nazi occupation forces and have the nazi markings and all.I dont know about operational service-probably little as .45 was not in the logistics systems in quantity in the Wehrmacht). HP35s were used in numbers by Germans as well as other nations during WWII , the TT33 Tokarev takes a leaf out of Brownings book bearing some kinship to an earlier Colt automatic - the model 1907 I believe. I also read that a British horse regiment was issued Lugers in 1909. The C96 Mauser pistol was reportedly used by US troops in the Phillipines in the early 1900 rebellions there.)

Anyways - the role of the handgun in combat has differed over the ages, military tactic has changed over time and along with technological advances. Normally all modern armies have adopted tactics used by others if found to be efficient -be it US or European.

Sometimes the technological development caught the decision makers unawares. The 9x19 mm is an efficient combat round and today its maybe the most common caliber. The .45 was more popular before - the tendency has been going towards lighter calibers in small arms over the last 100 - 75 years though. That said - highly trained professionals may have preferences towards this or that caliber. Many shooters have such preferances.

Also it should be considered that economy plays a role. A handgun doesnt give the same bang for buck as a rifle. So if arming a force on a budget - rifles will be bought.

I carried a Glock for app 2 years as a service weapon. Never had a problem even though I did let it suffer some mistreatment from time to time.Mud,dust,water,snow - as long as the barrel was free it went bang. Some stoppages occurred. Hardly any automatic has never jammed be it ammo,mag or fingers the culprit. Perfectly safe to carry loaded in the proper holster. Of course teaching the index finger were to stay until it was time to fire is paramount. No finger operations to botch getting of a shot in a stressed situation -just draw find the trigger and let loose. Saves time and effort when training people to use it.

The CZ75 is reliable and sturdy in my book-not as user friendly as the Glock though.

It is always going to be a trade off between the properties of the cartridge/projectile and the other stats on your gun. You can get a single shot Thompson Contender in .30-06. You can get a FNfiveseven with a 21 round mag or so.

[HorseSoldier]

In the German media there are reports from time to time, telling about incidents, where evil-doers could not be stopped by 9mm pistols, because the opponents were, as Paul and several others have mentioned, full of adrenaline and did not fall in the moment, when they were hit. Some pals of mine, that are police members, know about such incidents. But you do not read about it in the media all to often.

People can be hard to kill when it's all said and done. I know of various law enforcement involved shootings where an armed bad guy took multiple rounds of rifle fire to stop/drop. I can think of at least one where a guy was still fighting after catching most or all pellets from two 12 gauge 00 buckshot rounds and a couple 5.56mm rounds from a patrol carbine. Bad guy in that case did die, but was able to return fire after multiple hits from long guns before bleeding out.

[Panther Al]

People can be hard to kill when it's all said and done. I know of various law enforcement involved shootings where an armed bad guy took multiple rounds of rifle fire to stop/drop. I can think of at least one where a guy was still fighting after catching most or all pellets from two 12 gauge 00 buckshot rounds and a couple 5.56mm rounds from a patrol carbine. Bad guy in that case did die, but was able to return fire after multiple hits from long guns before bleeding out.

Not to mention the occasion when a perp took a .45 soupbowl to the centre chest - and asked to keep it as a souvenir when he ran to the hospital after running away from the homeowner. A metal button on his jean jacked filled the hollowpoint, and between what *has* to have been a light load and the thick jean jacket, thick sweater under, and the button itself, slowed the round enough for him to get back up and run like hell. Cops didn't let him keep it and sent it to Federal: this is one time I'll have to side with a perp, he earned the right for that souvenir.

[Tegyrius]

Ammunition is cheap. Give generously. Why stop at one

- C.