Recommissioned US Navy ships

[Mohoender]

great impact

An impact, solely an impact. Nothing that overwhelming.

[Legbreaker]

Does anyone have any information on which Soviet bloc ships might be reactivated, or how quickly the Pact could pump out warships
I'd have to say it seems more logical for the Soviets to start production sooner than anyone else given they're already at war with China. The Soviets also have a need to expand their navy to try and blockade all shipping to Chinese ports and their allies.
I can buy a swift and massive increase in the Soviet navy much more than I can any other nation on the planet given their earlier entry into hostilities.

[Mohoender]

Here is a good and viable source

http://russian-ships.info/eng/

However, you have to check every ship and try to cross reference what you find on it. Still, DOOSA and ships that have been given to the sailing clubs are the most readily available.

One thing is important to note and it is that most ship are small units including small frigates, corvettes, minewarfare and patrol boats.

The larger units would largely be discraded depend on wether or not the Kremlin allow them real financing. I would expect a number of destroyers to be returned to full duty: Kanin, Kildin and Kotlin classes but I'm not sure about the Sverdlov. It is true that the Soviet have been at war longer but I aslo think that they would prefer to focus on their newer ships and they were building plenty in the late 1980's.

I expect the aircraft carriers building program to be carried as planned in the 1980's, I expect more Slava, Udaloy, Sovremenyy, Neustrachimy, Gepard, Nanuchka, Tarantul and Pauk to be built. Same thing for the submarines.

You can also have the Matka hydrofoil entering full production to replace the aging Osa but I'm not convinced.

It will also depend of the game you play. With V1.0, tensions had been rising for some times before the war and funding obviously came. With v2.2, all the ships that were scrapped between 1987-1992 are indeed scrapped.

[Mohoender]

Soviet Ships that can be recommissioned

If that can help

These ships are given by fleet with their names but no pennant number and their location regarding the fleet is fairly accurate from what you can find out. When it comes to smaller ships (these with no name at all), there can be some more around. Of course, this is what could be, not what it is. To note, all these ships were about 10 years younger than the US destroyers that had gone through the FRAM program.

Additional ships might exist as well from, for example, the Osa-class or various types of torpedo boats. For ships that were in the process of decommissioning, I simply consider that the process ended. Kynda and Kresta I might not have been decommissioned at all. I didn't include the surviving Skoryy-class destroyers but a handful might still be around. I have a tendency to have them among the raiders sent to the Atlantic (as the Smolnyy training ships) for two reason: they carry a fair amount of gun rounds and you don't spare much valuable ships to chase cargo and tankers when 130mm and 76mm rounds can do the job just fine... and if the crews complain a bit: "Na Rodinia Tavarischi vi Geroy Sovyetskogo Soyuza"

Surviving Sverdlov-class would probably add the weapon systems still on display with the Mikhail Kutuzov (4 to 6 30mm AD systems and 2 SA-4 AD systems).

Submarines type are incomplete but the number of whiskey also include the surviving Zulu-class.

North Fleet:
- Cruiser "Vice-Admiral Drozd" (Kresta I-class)
- Cruiser "Alexandr Nevskiy" (Sverdlov-class)
- Cruiser "Murmansk"
- Destroyer "Gremyashchiy" (Kanin-class)
- Destroyer "Derzkiy"
- Destroyer "Boykiy"
- Destroyer "Zorkiy"
- Destroyer "Nesokurshimyy" (Kotlin-class)
- Destroyer "Spokoynyy"
- Destroyer "Skromnyy"
- 6 Riga-class Frigates
- 10 Poti-class Corvettes
- 4 Kronshtadt-class Corvettes
- 2 T43-class Seagoing Minesweepers

Baltic Fleet
- Cruiser "Admiral Zozulya" (Kresta I-class)
- Cruiser "Grozny" (Kynda-class)
- Cruiser "Sverdlov" (Sverdlov-class)
- Destroyer "Prozorlivyy" (Kildin-class)
- Destroyer "Nastoychivyy" (Kotlin-class)
- Destroyer "Blagorodnyy"
- Destroyer "Spehnyy"
- Destroyer "Svetlyy"
- 6 Riga-class Frigates
- 3 SO1-class Corvettes
- 12 Poti-class Corvettes
- 2 Kronshtadt-class Corvettes
- 4 T43-class Seagoing Minesweepers
- 14 Whiskey-class SSK

Pacific Fleet
- Cruiser "Sevastopol" (Kresta I-class)
- Cruiser "Vladivostok"
- Cruiser "Admiral Fokin" (Kynda-class)
- Cruiser "Riga"
- Cruiser "Admiral Senyavin" (Sverdlov-class)
- Cruiser "Alexandr Suvorov"
- Destroyer "Gnevnyy" (Kanin-class)
- Destroyer "Upornyy"
- Destroyer "Vyzyvayushchiy" (Kotlin-class)
- Destroyer "Vozbuzhdennyy"
- Destroyer "Vyderzhannyy"
- Destroyer "Skrytnyy"
- Destroyer "Burlivyy"
- 5 Riga-class Frigates
- 18 Whiskey-class SSK

Black Sea Fleet
- Cruiser "Admiral Golovko" (Kynda-class)
- Cruiser "Mikhail Kutuzov" (Sverdlov-class)
- Cruiser "Zhdanov"
- Destroyer "Bedovyy" (Kildin-class)
- Destroyer "Neulovimyy"
- Destroyer "Nakhodchivyy" (Kotlin-class)
- Destroyer "Sveduschiy"
- Destroyer "Plamennyy"
- 5 Riga-class Frigates
- 11 Poti-class Corvettes
- 1 Kronshtadt-class Corvette
- 2 T43-class Seagoing Minesweepers
- 14 Whiskey-class SSK

Caspian Sea Flotilla
- 3 Riga-class Frigates
- 1 Kronshtadt-class Corvette
- 4 T43-class Seagoing Minesweepers

[Legbreaker]

So basically you're looking at a fairly significant number of vessels, many of which are actually newer than the US ships available for recommissioning and since the Soviets have a reputation for simple, rugged designs which can be churned out fairly quickly with little care for the wellbeing of neither workers or crew....
Added in the head start the Soviets undoubtedly have because of the war with China and it's no real surprise the US and every other navy is shattered by mid 1997.

[Isochron]

I would expect the NATO navies are in better shape than the Soviet Navy, the NATO countries have more larger navies than the Eastern Block.

[Legbreaker]

And this is borne out in the books, but even after the Pact fleets are gone, they were still able to destroy Nato's remaining naval forces off the coast of Norway.

How did they manage that Probably by using all those recommissioned and new ships they had on the go because of the Chinese war. They were able to use their greater than IRL navy to decimate the western forces before the final decisive encounter in June 1997. After that date you're left with both sides able to field little more than individual ships here and there all suffering heavy battle damage which post November simply cannot be repaired fully.

In the period between June and November I see every last ship able to move under it's own power being needed at sea, even if damaged, to escort supply convoys across the Atlantic - there's simply no choice but to keep them out and active as there's just no other ships still floating.

As was shown by the German U-Boats in WWII, it doesn't take much to inflict catastrophic losses on unescorted civilian freighters, which is one of the big reasons why western navies are so strong compared to their expected cold war adversaries.

[Raellus]

If the Soviet Navy didn't have any significant battle groups left against which to retaliate, they might have resorted to taking out USN carrier task forces with tac-nukes. That would even things up pretty fast...

I prefer to think that the Soviets had a couple of genius admirals who were able to come up with some tricks that helped the Soviet navy come up with the above result using more conventional means. I like the scenarios Larry Bond and Tom Clancy dreamt up for Red Storm Rising.

[Legbreaker]

I'm all for using nukes, however with the first of them not used until the 9th of July 1997 and the Nato fleet destroyed 3-4 weeks earlier in mid June 1997....

[Panther Al]

If the Soviet Navy didn't have any significant battle groups left against which to retaliate, they might have resorted to taking out USN carrier task forces with tac-nukes. That would even things up pretty fast...

I prefer to think that the Soviets had a couple of genius admirals who were able to come up with some tricks that helped the Soviet navy come up with the above result using more conventional means. I like the scenarios Larry Bond and Tom Clancy dreamt up for Red Storm Rising.

I always felt that the Soviet Navel Leadership was more than able to come up with such plans.

But then, from what I have read (A great deal, but I am by no means a subject matter expert) the Soviet Navy an attritional force: it can be best summed up (In a overly simplistic fashion) of using a fire hose to stop an avalanche. Its possible: Use a big enough hose (Quality of Ships) with enough water (Quantity of Ships) handled by someone that has some talent (Quality of Leadership) you can actually do so. The question is: Did they meet the three challenges

[Legbreaker]

Well, if we use canon, they apparently did. How else can it be explained that the total assembled navies of Nato were destroyed without them resorting to nukes It obviously cost them everything to do it, but once the last effective naval force was on the bottom, what real use would they have for a navy besides the usual coastal patrols, etc
Sure it would be nice to have warships and landing craft, but it's not absolutely VITAL if there's no effective opposing force.

[Raellus]

Well, if we use canon, they apparently did. How else can it be explained that the total assembled navies of Nato were destroyed without them resorting to nukes It obviously cost them everything to do it, but once the last effective naval force was on the bottom, what real use would they have for a navy besides the usual coastal patrols, etc
Sure it would be nice to have warships and landing craft, but it's not absolutely VITAL if there's no effective opposing force.

Does canon specifically state that no naval nukes are used against NATO sea forces I don't recall that it does. That said, I don't think it's necessary as far as explaining NATO's naval losses.

If the Soviets could sucker major NATO naval forces closer to land- especially land controlled by the USSR (like NW Norway and/or the Kola Penninsula) they could reduce the NATO navies' sensor advantage and overwhelm them with firepower.

According to canon, there's a major battle in the Norwegian Sea, is there not A major Soviet naval sortie (two or three battle groups along with fast attack missile boats) and Naval air forces launching from land bases could do a lot of damage before hitting the bottom themselves.

[Legbreaker]

Does canon specifically state that no naval nukes are used against NATO sea forces

Not exactly, but close enough:

On July 9th, with advanced elements of the 1st German Army on Soviet soil, the Soviets begin using tactical nuclear weapons.

It's a very specific date for a VERY important event in history.
The 9th of July, 1997 is the day the war turned nuclear and hell flung open it's doors.

[Raellus]

Not exactly, but close enough:

It's a very specific date for a VERY important event in history.
The 9th of July, 1997 is the day the war turned nuclear and hell flung open it's doors.

OK, but couldn't naval nukes have been used after this date Does canon state that the Soviet and NATO navies were pretty much sunk (pardon the bad pun) before July 9th, 1997

[Matt Wiser]

Canon only deals with the Naval War in the North Atlantic/Norweigan Sea/Kola areas, except for TF 76 in the PG. No info at all about the Pacific, Med, etc. On the old board, I had quite a lot on the naval war, and Antenna should still have some of that on his board. Having three or four surviving carriers and amphibious assault ships, some cruisers and destroyers, etc. is a lot more realistic, IMHO. There's no way that the entire fleets of both the USN and the Soviet Navy would be sunk prior to TDM. And that's surface forces. There'd be more subs surviving than surface ships, including boomers, IMHO.