What to do with the 43,000 troops and dependents from Going Home?

[Graebarde]

While Amtrak is a craptastic .gov entity it rents time on the rails as those are private property. Even though a large rail hub may be nuked out of existence, there are all sorts of side lines that branch around a service small communities especially farm.

Alot of Rail road equipment and infrastructure will survive too as it is based in small towns too.

Rail would jump at the chance to become a people hauling entity again. There is something like 40 passenger cars in Puelbo sitting on a siding as it is not lucrative enough to run them.

The is even an operating Steam Locomotive that runs just for fans, the Toltec - Cumbres line.

Don't think most railroads would JUMP at the chance since they pushed to abolish passenger service in the first place when the started loosing money on it at the end of WW2. Took them twenty years to do it, but MOST of them wanted out of it. Now in the twilight era, I could see passenger service coming back, IF they have rail service at all.

Rail recovery would be one of the primary goals in rebuilding America. It is the most effecient means of moving tonnage of all modes. Two persons move 5000 tons hundreds of miles.. vs 250 plus semi trailers on the interstate

While I love the steam operations, I think the emphasis would be getting the d-e engines working again. Steam is dead from lack of sufficient infastructure to readily support it, as well as the limited number of operational engines. Yes on area basis, they will be used, IF they have the perosnnel to operate and maintain them.. a whole new skill set that is a hobby now..

Fuel is still the critical point with any of the modes.. and for steam WATER is needed more often than fuel.. it takes at least six pounds of water per pound of fuel for a steam engine.. somewhere I have data on the consumption factor of steam engines, but they guzzled the water and fuel. Yes the coal and wood, or heavy oil, can and has been used, but that is intensive use of resources for other things too.

Railroading is a whole game unto itself...

BTW I was in the transportation corps as a traffic manager for the last five years of service. I was an instructor at the trans school during the end of steam in the military. They had a Consolidated (2-8-0) they fired up monthly and moved around post. Ft Eusits had a massive amount of trackage for it's size since the at one time trained military railroaders. I took a course and was awarded a 'war-time' mos as rail movements coordinator (fancy name for dispatcher, station agent, car clerk.. not the man that run the train, but told the train when it could run.. and interacted between the railroad and customers.

About the time of T2K there were still two rail operations battalions in the reserves.. still are I think. During WW2 there were a score or more battalions, each sponsored by a civilian railroad actually. It's what I think would be the picture of American railroads in T2000.

Done ramblin
Grae

[Panther Al]

Indeed- the railroads made a strong effort to make it profitable till the early 60's but they couldn't do it. The late 40's and early 50's was the best it got. the only reason passenger rail works in Europe is because the distances are much shorter and that the gov subsidizes rail massively. But it must be admitted that nothing moves people and freight like rail does.

But it's not the most efficient: that title belongs to barges. And to give them it's due, most barges are running on powerplants built inthe 60's. EMD at one time was trying to convince barge tug owners to upgrade to more modern fuel efficient powerplants, which will stretch the lead they have even more.

[Adm.Lee]

Sidetracking the discussion

Alot of Rail road equipment and infrastructure will survive too as it is based in small towns too.

The short lines might still have stuff, but the Class I roads have been shucking those lines for decades. The trunk lines still run in and through major cities, and if bridges are down, then that's a big problem.

Rail would jump at the chance to become a people hauling entity again. There is something like 40 passenger cars in Puelbo sitting on a siding as it is not lucrative enough to run them.

The railroads had been trying to get rid of passenger rail as fast as they could since the '60s. Having said that, I think MilGov's going to be nationalizing things de facto, and pressing commuter coaches into use as people-haulers if they can. Freight hauling is going to be more important, anyway, as they need to knit the economy back together.

The is even an operating Steam Locomotive that runs just for fans, the Toltec - Cumbres line.

There's at least a dozen steam locomotives operating about the US in the '90s, but they take a lot of man-hours to maintain, and the specialized skills are pretty rare.

The two places MilGov will want to head to try to recover any steam locomotives are the Norfolk & Western's shops at Roanoke, VA and the museum at Strasburg PA. I can't recall if there was anything running from Roanoke in the late '90s, or if they had shut down by then. Sugar Creek in Ohio was running 4 steam locomotives in the last decade, but they've shut down in the last 5 years.

As for the rest of the railnet, diesel-electric locomotives need fuel to run, I presume some shop modifications can be made to run them on alcohol The all-electric Northeast Corridor will need a lot of juice and wire work-- if there's a power plant running, it can be fixed.

Repairing any damaged rails is a bigger problem. I presume the railroads may have exhausted their stocks of replacement rails by 1999-2000, so you'll really want to get a steel mill working again.

[Targan]

Repairing any damaged rails is a bigger problem. I presume the railroads may have exhausted their stocks of replacement rails by 1999-2000, so you'll really want to get a steel mill working again.

Not at first. So much rail that could be torn up and re-laid where needed. Think of all those rail routes that have 4, 6, 8 or more lines running into and out of major transport hubs and population centres. No need for that level of capacity for many years to come. Work crews would be tasked with ripping up excess parallel lines and re-laying the rails as required. IMHO of course.

[Webstral]

Security of the routes is the chief obstacle, I believe. A train attracts attention. The hungry locals and marauders alike will conclude that the train probably has things they need--things worth transporting. Track is vulnerable, and trains are restricted to track. Long-distance transportation by rail is going to be very difficult if it moves through areas that are not secure--which is to say very large swaths of the country in 2000 and 2001.

Barge traffic, on the other hand, has a somewhat more secure line of traffic. For this reason, I think one of the main efforts of Milgov in 2001 will be securing the coastal waterways of the Atlantic and Gulf Coasts, plus the navigable portions of the Mississippi watershed and the rivers east of the Appalachians. Knocking out or co-opting the Sea Lord of Jacksonville will be an important step. Controlling marauders along the principal river routes will be another.

The French maintained a riverine force in Indochina during their war, and the US 9th Infantry was a riverine force operating in the Mekong Delta. I wonder if a large portion of the Omegamen might not be turned into brown water Marines.

The GDW folks already thought of the powerful potential of the inland navigation system. (See attachment) An armored brigade holds the hub in southern Illinois, while strenuous efforts have been made to ensure that "the Father of Waters flows unvexed to the sea" (Abraham Lincoln). So long as traffic can move along the waterways unimpeded, the hinterland beyond the banks can wait. By the same token, a riverine force can move large tonnages of men and equipment in a very fuel-efficient fashion. Such a force can land anywhere their ships can reach. Imagine the effect on local marauders and warlords if a properly-equipped and supplied infantry brigade is brought ashore with little warning. Throw in a couple of assault guns and some folks to train the locals to form their own militia, and you've got yourself a brick in the edifice of Operation Manifest Destiny.

[Adm.Lee]

I agree that river traffic would be quicker to revive. "Pirates of the Mississippi," anyone

Seeing as how the ships of TF34 will be arriving in November, I don't think there will be a lot of movement from the Norfolk area over the winter Maybe spreading out a bit, south and west inland. Walking over the mountains doesn't sound like a lot of fun in winter, Interstate highways or not.

Come spring, I can see one group staying put, one heading northeast where Milgov has an outpost, one to New Orleans to help control the Mississippi and expand from there. That Sea Lord in Jacksonville will be a sticking point, and the Civgov enclave in Georgia is in the way. I think those would be my major directions for MilGov East.

[Webstral]

I agree that river traffic would be quicker to revive. "Pirates of the Mississippi," anyone

More fun than you could shake a stick at.

That Sea Lord in Jacksonville will be a sticking point, and the Civgov enclave in Georgia is in the way. I think those would be my major directions for MilGov East.

Civgov will be a concern, to be sure. However, unless they actively interdict sea traffic I dont believe Milgov will want to enter into conflict with them. I wonder, though, how the Sea Lord will behave. Who is he, really What are his real motivations Where does he see himself going If he messes with coastal shipping, how does that play out Lots of interesting possibilities there.

[ArmySGT.]

Don't think most railroads would JUMP at the chance since they pushed to abolish passenger service in the first place when the started loosing money on it at the end of WW2. Took them twenty years to do it, but MOST of them wanted out of it. Now in the twilight era, I could see passenger service coming back, IF they have rail service at all.

However the competition that was taking the profit out of transporting people. Namely got nuked out of business. Those Bus lines are harbored in, and operate out of cities.
Secondly, fuel is no longer cheap to burn for the profit of moving people. Refined fuel is not cheap, rationed, and mostly for Govt purposes.

Rail recovery would be one of the primary goals in rebuilding America. It is the most effecient means of moving tonnage of all modes. Two persons move 5000 tons hundreds of miles.. vs 250 plus semi trailers on the interstate

Exactly why I think it will be prime movement in TW2k. Also the first choice to move many people for acceptable cost in the resource poor period after the exchange of nuclear gifts.

While I love the steam operations, I think the emphasis would be getting the d-e engines working again. Steam is dead from lack of sufficient infastructure to readily support it, as well as the limited number of operational engines. Yes on area basis, they will be used, IF they have the perosnnel to operate and maintain them.. a whole new skill set that is a hobby now..

Diesel fuel becomes the issue. I am sure they would love them but, if you cant get fuel because there are no oil rigs, refineries, or holding tanks; alternatives have to be found.
As for the skill set. The damn machine is crawling in enthusiasts that will drown you in minutiae. Heck some will operate just because they always wanted to. A real rail mission with real freight, would be a wet dream.

Fuel is still the critical point with any of the modes.. and for steam WATER is needed more often than fuel.. it takes at least six pounds of water per pound of fuel for a steam engine.. somewhere I have data on the consumption factor of steam engines, but they guzzled the water and fuel. Yes the coal and wood, or heavy oil, can and has been used, but that is intensive use of resources for other things too.

Doesnt have to be drinking water just sediment free and mineral free if that can be helped. Water tanks can be improvised along the line. If it can be done in 1860 TW2k can find a way.

About the time of T2K there were still two rail operations battalions in the reserves.. still are I think. During WW2 there were a score or more battalions, each sponsored by a civilian railroad actually. It's what I think would be the picture of American railroads in T2000.

Their still around and still recruiting for the Army Reserve.

[Legbreaker]

It all really comes down to the tracks. As has been mentioned in many places, including canon sources, tracks are often pulled up by locals after the steel. Fires can rip though a track causing untold damage to the wooden sleepers, or at least warping the tracks enough to potentially cause derailment.
Security as mentioned is also a big issue. If units are having trouble securing their fields, how are they expected to secure hundred of miles of track as well. Yes, a field of potatoes is more concentrated value than a steel track, but there's still value.

Given the vast distances tracks cover, and some rather remote locations it goes through, they're prime targets for ambushes. A train forced to stop because of a fallen log, missing section of rail, etc is a prime target for marauders bent on stealing whatever cargo is on board. Yes you can mount troops on the train with machineguns, mortars, artillery and so forth, but as has been illustrated in history, a determined attacker definately has the advantage as long as they've planned ahead and set up in a suitable location.

Rail in my view will be very important for the reconstruction of the country, but it's going to be near useless early on. Maybe by 2010 when some order has been restored, and infrastructure rebuilt, but certainly not in 2001.

[ArmySGT.]

It all really comes down to the tracks. As has been mentioned in many places, including canon sources, tracks are often pulled up by locals after the steel. Fires can rip though a track causing untold damage to the wooden sleepers, or at least warping the tracks enough to potentially cause derailment.
Security as mentioned is also a big issue. If units are having trouble securing their fields, how are they expected to secure hundred of miles of track as well. Yes, a field of potatoes is more concentrated value than a steel track, but there's still value.

Given the vast distances tracks cover, and some rather remote locations it goes through, they're prime targets for ambushes. A train forced to stop because of a fallen log, missing section of rail, etc is a prime target for marauders bent on stealing whatever cargo is on board. Yes you can mount troops on the train with machineguns, mortars, artillery and so forth, but as has been illustrated in history, a determined attacker definately has the advantage as long as they've planned ahead and set up in a suitable location.

Rail in my view will be very important for the reconstruction of the country, but it's going to be near useless early on. Maybe by 2010 when some order has been restored, and infrastructure rebuilt, but certainly not in 2001.

Who is going to move what, where, and with what fuel The trucks are being used on the fronts, the factories are nuked, the ability to pump oil and refine it gone.

During the U.S. Civil War Scout trains were used. I had a flat bed filled with stone to detonate torpedoes (mines), then flat cars with troops armed with cannon, gatlings, calliopes, and rifles, the locomotive, fuel car, water car, freight car with rations and such then a caboose. Sometime even another locomotive on the other end facing the other way to hasten a retreat.

These scout locomotives would run ahead of the troop or supply train to see that the rails were open and good. A company of Rifle infantry to secure and clean rails. Sometimes even gandydancers, rail, and ties to repair the track.

[Legbreaker]

True, 150 years ago give or take they were well organised, but they also had an intact rail system to start with plus the necessary supporting infrastructure.
When the troops arrive from Europe, they'll be faced with a rail system which has been nuked, torn up and otherwise damaged. They will not have the necessary engines, carriages, and supplies to organise trains on even the civil war level. They will also be seriously lacking heavier weapons than rifles and machineguns with the odd M203 given the restrictions placed on troop "luggage".

In my mind it will take some time to arrange the first "scout" train, and much longer before anything resembling a regular service canbe established. 10 years does not seem like an unreasonable time frame given the problems the US will face with reestablishing the necessary infrastructure and security.

Trains are not the answer to shift the Omegamen from Norfolk in 2000 or 2001. Maybe in 2002, but by then the drought will have really kicked in and movement by foot and whatever other transport can be scrounged is sure to have been used to relocate the bulk of the people (canon supports this movement, but does not specify how).

[ArmySGT.]

However, someone else arranged for the Troops from Europe to come to Norfolk. Someone with an organization planned for the arrival of these Troops. If the could not feed, move, and support them, then why bring them back at all

There is an organization there. MilGov. MilGov has the legal authority to commandeer (US Statutes) as does FEMA (FEMA is CivGov yes).

However they have the organizational skills, the training, and likely the manpower.

Adaption, use the assets you have to support the Commanders intent, Act on your own initiative to support the Mission. These are tenets in US Military Doctrine.

MilGov troops will strip rail from sidings, yards, and spurs to build a route around nuked areas. Rail does go through Major cities, however there are miles and miles of track just to support all the small communities and farms. At this point it is not about speed, it is about economy. Rail and who controls it will be in a position to move resources, equipment, and personnel to viable places while cannibalizing anything else.

MilGov will be preparing for those Troops to comeback because there will be a plan to use them somewhere.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I can think of nothing that would engender good will and gratitude to MilGov than by hiring contractors to get buses (bluebird school buses, mind you), trucks, vans, horsedrawn carts and whatever else up and working on behalf of troop resettlement. Pay with food and medical supplies, possibly gold and C16 ammo Hell yeah. Net result: MilGov pays pretty good and getting on this reconstruction job is a good deal.

Also as to what to do with them (the troops) I can see a lot being employed to help start digging out DC.

[Legbreaker]

However, someone else arranged for the Troops from Europe to come to Norfolk. Someone with an organization planned for the arrival of these Troops. If the could not feed, move, and support them, then why bring them back at all

Politics, as I have already indicated. Also, the military only needs to feed them until they are demobilised or otherwise moved on. Once they're cut loose, they're responsible for their own upkeep, just like many of the troops already were before leaving Poland.

MilGov troops will strip rail from sidings, yards, and spurs to build a route around nuked areas. Rail does go through Major cities, however there are miles and miles of track just to support all the small communities and farms. At this point it is not about speed, it is about economy. Rail and who controls it will be in a position to move resources, equipment, and personnel to viable places while cannibalizing anything else.

Absolutely and I totally agree they will be doing those things, what I am saying is that it won't happen overnight. It's a long and slow process made longer and slower due to a crippling lack of heavy machinery and the trains will not be available for use for a substantial amount of time, time they will not have due to the drought.

MilGov will be preparing for those Troops to comeback because there will be a plan to use them somewhere.

What units will be already onsite preparing for the arrival How much work can they really get done in the relatively short time available and while they themselves are scrounging around for enough to eat The US is beyond being on it's knees, it's laying face down on the canvas, barely hanging onto consciousness. There's almost nothing available to carry out any significant works to prepare for the coming influx of troops.

My guess is the organisers saw the operation as having more in common with an amphibious landing - very little useful infrastructure or immediately useful supplies available to hand and everything needed for at least the first month had to be shipped in. This may explain why everyone aboard was limited to just 100kgs of gear - the rest of the cargo space was taken up with tents, a few light vehicles, food, field kitchens, medical supplies, and the other necessities of life.

[agrikk]

Woah! When I posted this and received a "Amtrak" response, I though okay, cool. Amtrak. But then I came back to check and found 42 replies I was stoked! Thanks for the input, guys. It'll help a ton!

If you don't have this excellent source of T2K material then I can't urge you strongly enough to obtain them.

I've been tempted to buy the CDs for a while, but never had a real reason since I own most of the modules in hardcopy. But now that I see there's a wealth of information in the Challenge articles, I bought them last night.

I'm kinda partial to the Amtrak idea, simply because my players didn't take the Last Train to Clarksville and I always felt they missed out. My players will probably stick around Norfolk for a while before being organized into some kinds of special operations unit and running a mission to NYC to recover some gold.

I think I am going to organize the returning troops into the reacivated and called up 77th Regional Support Command which has a mandate to support FEMA during "natural or manmade disasters", but in this case replace FEMA with MilGov under the soon to be lost 12th Corps. (Support insted of Readiness because it didn't get renamed to Readiness until 2003...). Of the 43,000, I'm going to say that around 15,000 make it to the shores of the US as combat effectives. The rest peel off to the Middle East or wherever and the rest are civilian staff, contrators and dependents.

My plan is to use the 77th as a marker of the dissolution of the United States: the characters will leave for NYC as the unit is being formed as a full division but every time they return to Norfolk after weeks away, they see the 77th reformed as a brigade, then a handful of battalions under 12th Corps, then finally dissolving altogether upon being ordered to reinforce the 78th at Fort Dix.

Although it can't realistically handle a large fraction of all of those troops, there are military convoys between Norfolk and Muskogee (Oklahoma), by way of Greensboro, Nashville, Memphis and Little Rock.

I am going to use this as a factor that ultimately dooms the 77th. It will never make it off the Norfolk enclave as a fighting unit as it is pulled apart to reinforce other units, convoys to Muskogee and desertions take their toll.