Homosexuals in the military

[pmulcahy11b]

<Split from Female combat soldiers in T2K thread>

Politically that might now be possible, but I just can't see too many women being assigned to combat roles. It'll be a good generation or so before there's more than the odd token woman in any one battalion.
The testosterone laden, male dominated combat arms will need a whole new mindset before it occurs.

Though it's already started to a small extent, it will be a fight similar to integrating the services and allowing gays in the military. Once it starts in earnest, it will drag on for decades.

And unfortunately, gays in the military will find that their problems are not now solved; their going to be the subject of hate crimes, hazing, bullshit details, and prejudice and hate from the senior NCOs and officers -- and possibly some of the mid-level ones as well. Ironically, polls of the troops indicate that the enlisted and junior NCOs, and junior officers -- Captain and below -- don't really care if their fellow soldier is gay, except in 20% of the responses. The higher the rank of the soldier, the more likely he is to be prejudiced against gays in the military.

And for the record, I knew fellow soldiers who were gay at every posting, in every unit I've ever been in, the whole time I was in the Army. I couldn't care less. My attitude was pretty much, "Do your job, pull your weight, do better than your best, and don't be a troublemaker -- and your personal life is your business." I counseled some gay soldiers, and didn't break their trust by telling my superiors about it. Yeah, I broke the rules in that respect, but I felt I was morally correct in that attitude and that the Army wasn't.

[Fusilier]

And unfortunately, gays in the military will find that their problems are not now solved; their going to be the subject of hate crimes, hazing, bullshit details, and prejudice and hate from the senior NCOs and officers -- and possibly some of the mid-level ones as well. Ironically, polls of the troops indicate that the enlisted and junior NCOs, and junior officers -- Captain and below -- don't really care if their fellow soldier is gay, except in 20% of the responses. The higher the rank of the soldier, the more likely he is to be prejudiced against gays in the military.

A long time ago we could have replaced the term "gays" in your post with "blacks" and your post would still make sense. The early days for any change will be rocky, but eventually it will become as normal as previous transitions. Society is changing for the better and as each year passes, just like on civie street, it will be a little bit easier for gays to be integrated and accepted.

The army will get over the fact that nobody should have to hide something that is as natural as skin color.

[natehale1971]

A long time ago we could have replaced the term "gays" in your post with "blacks" and your post would still make sense. The early days for any change will be rocky, but eventually it will become as normal as previous transitions. Society is changing for the better and as each year passes, just like on civie street, it will be a little bit easier for gays to be integrated and accepted.

The army will get over the fact that nobody should have to hide something that is as natural as skin color.

My gaming group in the Navy touched on this subject alot... because two of our players were gay and in a relationship, and everyone in the group knew it and supported them. And when ever we would talk about the entire issue back when all this started in 1993, they said that they wouldn't want things to be out in the open because it would make an issue of their sexuality. Reducing their humanity and making them nothing more than... their sexual orientation, when they were so much more than that.

And when "Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Pursue" came out they were happy with it. Because the fact of who you sleep with shouldn't be an issue and shouldn't be paraded about (because even hetrosexual displays of affection or sexuality NOT ALLOWED in uniform), and as long as you didn't force it on others no one did or said anything about it.

Hell, I never liked it when people would start talking about their sexticapdes, and then expected others to start and describe theirs... and when i would beg off, i'd get hazed because i was a virgin who was waiting for someone i loved to be with.

I knew 75% of the gays that where in any command that i was assigned, namely because I was would end up getting hit on by them on a routine basis (my sexual naivate for some reason seemed to give them the idea i was gay). And they'd be terrified when i would say "I'm fallatered, but I'm straight..." that I was going to turn them in, but they would became close friends when I said "Who you sleep with, is none of my business. It's something between you, your partner (or partners) and God. I'm not putting myself in a position to judge... because I ain't God."

And this would cause them to tell the other gays and lesbians that I was someone who wouldn't make their sexuality a big deal, and I wouldn't report them. And unfortuantely, that caused one of them to keep hitting on me and not take "NO" for an answer. He stalked me, and sexually assaulted me.

This situation is NOTHING like that of intergation... remember that it was Woodrow Wilson who had segreated the Armed Forces and the federal government services. It was an act done by a racist whose so-called 'Progressive' ideals would inspire the Nazis (not just their racial ideology, but their mastery and use of Propaganda to sway the masses to support anything the government leaders wanted).

It really gets to me when the 'in your face' types who make what ever hypenated group that they are more important than everything else. If you are Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender or Questioning it doesn't matter to me. Hell, It's NONE OF ANYONE ELSES BUSINESS. So please stop forcing it down others throats.

Who someone sleeps with or who they get married to just shouldn't be the governments or anyone elses business. It's something that is theirs, their partner (or partners) and God's business... and NO ONE else's business.

And before anyone attacks me for saying this... just know a little bit more about me.

My Aunt Carol was a lesbian and I adored her. Our family was really close, and when she killed her lover Ruth it really caused our family major heartache. Not only did we have to deal with the trial that could have been a death penality case (something that all of us, inculding Aunt Carol supported)... we had to go into the prosecutors bringing out Aunt Carol and Ruth's entire relationship and everything that went with it out in the open.

The fact that Ruth was abusive to Carol and her own children wasn't the hard part to deal with. It was the other things that came out (we really didn't need the fact that Aunt Ruth's oldest son was sexually molesting my male cousin being released to the media). They brought out all kinds of things in an effort to use them to give Aunt Carol motive for killing Ruth.

Trying to make it look like it had been premeditated murder, when the fact of the matter was nothing like that... Aunt Carol and Ruth had gotten into a fight about Ruth's youngest son (who was 14, and she was going to throw him out of the house) while they were at a local gaybar and had been drinking just way too much. It had ended with Ruth throwing Aunt Carol across the bar and breaking a table. Ruth was then thrown out of the bar while they took care of Aunt Carol, and because Aunt Carol had the car keys she started walking the three miles back home. When Aunt Carol woke up she went and got into her car and headed home, and she said that she never rembered hitting Aunt Ruth nor having dragged her dead body under the car all the way home.

After she was found guilty and senticed to prison, we would travel the four hours to go see her every month, and my mom and grandmom would have to put up with the security checks to get into the prison... and I would have to sit with my sisters (one was a toddler and the other an infant) because we were not allowed inside to see Aunt Carol because we were too young and it was a max security prison. We didn't get to see her until they transfered her to a minimum security prision during the last years of her sentice before she was finally paroled.

When Aunt Carol died earlier this year i put my broken body in a tiny car and rode for 4 hours one way for her funeral. That's how much i loved her and cared for her.

Oh... I also have two 'adopted' brothers who are openingly gay, and many of my stances comes through our relationship together.

Now, I recently tried to give an 'intersexed' person a word of encouragement... and all i got out of it was a flipping hatefilled stalker that the police had to deal with, because they accused ME of being the one filled with hate because of my political affiliation when it was THEM who was attacking me with nothing but HATE.

So none of this is coming from hate... but a philosophy that there are things that are public, things that are private. And that if you allow someone to take a single part of you, and identify you ONLY by that... you are allowing them to control you.

John Wayne said it best...

The Hyphen

The hyphen. Websters dictionary defines as a symbol used to divide a compound word or a single word.

So it seems to me that when a man calls himself Afro-American or Mexican-American or Italian-American or Irish-American or Jewish-American, what hes saying is oeIm a divided American.

Well, we all came from other places, different creeds, different races, to form a nation, to become as one. Yet look at the harm a line has done, a simple little line, and, yet, as divisive as a line can get. A crooked cross the Nazis flew, and the Russian hammer and sickle, too time bombs in the lives of Man.

But none of these could ever fan the flames of hatred faster than the hyphen.

The Russian hammer built a wall that locks mens hearts from freedoms call. The crooked cross flew overhead above 20 million tragic dead, among them, men from this great nation who died for Freedoms preservation.

A hyphen is a line thats small. It can be a bridge or it can be a wall. A bridge can save you lots of time; a wall you always have to climb.

The road to Liberty lies true. The hyphens use is up to you.

Used as a bridge, it can span all the differences of Man. Being free in mind and soul should be our most important goal.

But, if you use the hyphen as a wall, youll make your life mean and small.

An American is a special breed whose People came to her in need. They came to her that they might find a world where theyd have peace of mind, where men are equal, and (something more), stand taller than they stood before.

So you be wise in your decision, and that little line wont cause division. Lets join hands with one another, for in this land, each mans your brother. United we stand; divided we fall.

Were Americans. That says it all.

And even if you aren't an Ameircan... this goes for your nations as well.

Look at what the type of multicultralism that divides people has brought to Europe. You have enclaves of extremists that are being breed in government sponsored poverty and misery mills that natives of their own country are terrified of going into (or entire parts of their home towns that they are being forced out of thanks to racially motivated violence against them). This is happening all across Western Europe & Great Britain, it's blatantly obvious for anyone willing to admit it to themselves.

The simple fact is this...

"A house divided against itself cannot stand." - Abraham Lincoln

And this new policy is taking something that should be PRIVATE and is making it PUBLIC. It's making it to where the types of people at the Gay Pride Parades who dress in a nun's habit and invade a Catholic Church hurling profanty and other epitahs at everyone... or run around naked in fetish gear and perform actual homosexual sex acts in front of children can join the armed forces and make EVERYTHING about their sexual orientation.

And all this does is make for a hostile work enviroment for EVERYONE. It can make morale a major problem, and the first time one of the 'in your face' types does something that is a major violoation of the UCMJ, it's going to be made into a federal case and they'll be screaming that it's all about homophobia and not the fact that they did something wrong.

All this current situation does now is make an issue that should have remained private in the first place. The military is not a place to be playing with 'social engineering' because any mistakes can end up getting alot of people killed.

There are those where who supported the idea of Summery Executions during T2k for 'troublemakers'.

So think about that for a second.

Is any unit going to be able to handle someone who is so "in your face" about their sexuality that it becomes uncomfortable for others who don't share their sexuality in the unit And what's going to be the answer to that problem. Is the fact they are causing morale problems going to be dealt with without cries of Homophobia

[Fusilier]

I don't think most are trying to make it anyone's business anymore than a hetero person does. They just don't want to have to keep it hidden in fear of losing their jobs for something that isn't job performance related.

Just because you don't have to hide something doesn't mean it's becomes an issue. Only other people with issues with it do that in most cases. Sort of like complaining that it is being forced down people's throats... as opposed to what hetero people do in public.

[natehale1971]

I don't think most are trying to make it anyone's business anymore than a hetero person does. They just don't want to have to keep it hidden in fear of losing their jobs for something that isn't job performance related.

Just because you don't have to hide something doesn't mean it's becomes an issue. Only other people with issues with it do that in most cases. Sort of like complaining that it is being forced down people's throats... as opposed to what hetero people do in public.

thats just it. We aren't talking about MOST. We are talking about those that make it an issue and force the issue. The 'DADTDP' policy allowed homosexuals to serve. The proof is that they have already been serving in the Armed Forces. The 'Identity Politics' that puts a single facit of life as the sole way of being identified is what is being used here. There are people who live their lives quietly and do what they do without anyone knowing anything about it, are NOT the ones we're talking about.

We're talking about the ones who throw it in everyone else's face and makes even those who might support the idea of what they are wanting feel dirty and discusted with their actions. You know, the type of person who wouldn't take no for an answer. The type of people who make it a federal case with the accusations that everything is against them because of something that is a private matter that THEY had made a public issue.

[Targan]

There was one gay and one bi important NPCs in my last campaign. None of the PCs cared at all. There were some problems with a pair of redneck important NPCs harassing and bullying a gay NPC in the group but the CO warned them off and that was that. There was also some tension due to unrequited lust but these things just added to the flavour of the game IMO.

There was also a nasty incident of homosexual rape against one of the PCs. He was able to kill all of his attackers though so that somewhat mitigated the psychological damage he suffered. After that the PC group's hostile activities against the CIA in the NYC-Jersey area REALLY ramped up. Vengence was definitely had.

[Fusilier]

Oh ok.

However I do think there is a fringe minority with every type of group out there. Some people just want attention, even negative attention, whether it is about their sexual orientation, race, religion, etc. A rule of silence doesn't seem to help.

[Fusilier]

I can't see the gay extremists 'driving it down other people's throats' this bad though...

U.S. Soldiers Punished for Not Attending Christian Concert

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/08/19/u-s-soldiers-punished-for-not-attending-christian-concert/

[natehale1971]

There was one gay and one bi important NPCs in my last campaign. None of the PCs cared at all. There were some problems with a pair of redneck major NPCs but the CO warned them off and that was that. There was also some tension due to unrequited lust but these things just added to the flavour of the game IMO.

There was also a nasty incident of homosexual rape against one of the PCs. He was able to kill all of his attackers though so that somewhat mitigated the psychological damage he suffered. After that the PC group's hostile activities against the CIA in the NYC-Jersey area REALLY ramped up. Vengence was definitely had.

In the groups ive played T2k (TMP, and other games as well)... we had many characters who were Homosexual or Bisexual.

In one campaign, we had the senior officer who was a bisexual woman who had a 'group marriage' with sister-wifes and a male character.

We had an openly gay male who had volunteered when his brother had been killed during the start of Euro-Soviet War when a soviet airforce bombing attack had hit their home in the UK. He was probly the most 'conservative' of the characters (he had the statement of "Don't judge me, I won't judge you" tattooed on his upper arm in this really detailed scorll work on what looked like a Coat of Arms).

We had another openly gay character in another campaign who was flamboyantly gay... and looked like a burly lumberjack. When we saw the movie the Birdcage most of us thought of him (the character played by Robin Williams).

We had a run-in with a downed Royal Air Force pilot that was a lesbian who had set up an all-female armed camp that was composed mostly of polish and east german civilin women, and a few female military personnel from NATO states, Poland and East Germany. Most of the women were scared of men because of gang rapes done by Soviets (whom they didn't even offer chances of surrender, they just killed them).

In another campaign, we had a gay PC whose player kind of went off the deep end, and used personal feelings to have his character to rape and mutilate a PC controlled NPC to get back at a percieved insult IRL. It did not end well... in the game or out. the Master-at-Arms basicly showed up and a captain's mass came out of that one.

I've gamed with many groups over the year. And we've had people of all kinds of orientations and ideals represented around the gaming table and in game worlds... and the after game discssions were always interesting to listen into.

[natehale1971]

I can't see the gay extremists 'driving it down other people's throats' this bad though...

U.S. Soldiers Punished for Not Attending Christian Concert
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/08...stian-concert/

while that is pretty bad, the person who did something like this will be punished. because they acted beyond their power and authority. And things like this aren't that common, while identity politics homosexual activists have stormed alot of churches, have engaged in public sex acts during gay pride parades, and other actions.

The person repsonsible for this will be punished and have no grounds to stand. But the idenity politcs activists will always fall back on accuastations of 'Homophobia' and 'Bigoitry'... because history has shown this, time and time again.

[Fusilier]

while identity politics homosexual activists have stormed alot of churches, have engaged in public sex acts during gay pride parades, and other actions.

In the military though In uniform

My point was just that despite the silence being lifted off of gays in the military, I just don't see them driving that down other people's throats.

[ArmySGT.]

I can't see the gay extremists 'driving it down other people's throats' this bad though...

U.S. Soldiers Punished for Not Attending Christian Concert
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/08...stian-concert/

That is a Commanding General that should be Court Martial-ed. If convicted to do time, lots of time, at Ft. Leavenworth.

To be followed by each Officer and NCO that obeyed that Order, down to Corporal if necessary.

[natehale1971]

In the military though In uniform

My point was just that despite the silence being lifted off of gays in the military, I just don't see them driving that down other people's throats.

Yes. I can see that. And so can my friends who are openly gay who have NOT been happy about this. While I HOPE that recruiters and induction centres will be able to keep those kinds of problems OUT of the service. But you know that if they can use the 'homophobia' excuse to make a federal case out of it.

Oh... I just checked out the website you posted that news article from, and you might want to reconsider them as a source... they're saying that Adam Gadahn is a fake member of al-Qeada, and that the Isrealis are the one who claimed to be al-Qeada threatening Iranian President Ahmadinejad for failing to give oethem credit for 9/11. Things that i've only seen on conspiracy theory news groups.

[natehale1971]

That is a Commanding General that should be Court Martial-ed. If convicted to do time, lots of time, at Ft. Leavenworth.

To be followed by each Officer and NCO that obeyed that Order, down to Corporal if necessary.

Don't worry SGT, this is the rest of the story...

Army says troops wrongly punished for skipping concert
A staff sergeant erred when he banished dozens of soldiers to their barracks and ordered them to clean up after they refused to attend a Christian concert on a Virginia Army base last year, an investigation concluded.

By STEVE SZKOTAK

The Associated Press

Related

RICHMOND, Va. " A staff sergeant erred when he banished dozens of soldiers to their barracks and ordered them to clean up after they refused to attend a Christian concert on a Virginia Army base last year, an investigation concluded.

When the Army learned the soldiers were punished, the company commander apologized to them the next day, according to the investigation's findings, released Tuesday to The Associated Press.

The actions of the staff sergeant, who was not named, were referred back to his battalion commander for nonjudicial action, according to Col. Daniel Williams, a spokesman for the Army's Document and Training Command. He said any punishment, if it occurred, would be kept confidential.

The sergeant's actions in May 2010 at Fort Eustis in Newport News, Va., were not consistent with the voluntary nature of the concerts, Williams said.

"The command did not find sufficient evidence to indicate there was any malicious intent and therefore deferred any discipline down to the battalion command," Williams said.

Mikey Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, which first reported complaints by the soldiers, described the investigation's conclusion as typical for the military.

"Blame some lower-ranking enlisted guy who didn't know any better," he said. "That is just a completely inappropriate and disgraceful statement."

Weinstein called the Christian concerts "an absolute attempt to establish fundamental Christianity in the military."

Williams described them as "nondenominational with no particular religious affiliation."

Two soldiers who were punished told the AP they felt pressured to attend a performance by the Christian rock group BarlowGirl, as part of what was billed as the "Commanding General's Spiritual Fitness Concerts."

The soldiers said the staff sergeant told 200 men in their barracks they could either attend or remain confined there. They were told to not use their cellphones or personal computers and to clean up their living area.

The investigation did not dispute the soldiers' statements.

Williams said the concerts, which continue to be staged, are strictly voluntary, as they had been in May 2010.

The sergeant, Williams said, "marched a unit over to the Spiritual Fitness Concert thinking he was doing the right thing. He found out a very short time after that, no, that was not the right thing to do. He was corrected."

About 20, including several Muslims, refused to attend based on religious beliefs, the solder said.

Since then, the Army has reinforced the volunteer nature of the concerts through e-mails and training, Williams said.

[Fusilier]

Oh... I just checked out the website you posted that news article from, and you might want to reconsider them as a source.

They aren't actual source. The website is just reposting it from the Associate Press, just as others like msnbc seen here...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38792399/ns/us_news-life#.ToUG9WG4cas