Belize

[StainlessSteelCynic]

You know, it is just a game.
It's not meant to be a hardcore, realistic, survival simulator.

Nobody would have even started playing RPGs if D&D was "realistic", (with all that xenophobia, bigotry, religious persecution, disease, famine, warfare, primitive medicine, primitive science, fear of the unknown, fear of travellers, fear of loners, indentured servitude, unhealthy living conditions, even less healthy work conditions etc. etc. of the "real" medieval European world - no chance the real world of that time will let people game out their own personal empowerment fantasies)

[Schone23666]

You know, it is just a game.
It's not meant to be a hardcore, realistic, survival simulator.

Nobody would have even started playing RPGs if D&D was "realistic", (with all that xenophobia, bigotry, religious persecution, disease, famine, warfare, primitive medicine, primitive science, fear of the unknown, fear of travellers, fear of loners, indentured servitude, unhealthy living conditions, even less healthy work conditions etc. etc. of the "real" medieval European world - no chance the real world of that time will let people game out their own personal empowerment fantasies)

Say, now hold on a minute there! "Puffs chest ridiculously" I happen to be a "veteran" D&D player, and I take OFFENSE to your insinuations!

[Olefin]

You know, it is just a game.
It's not meant to be a hardcore, realistic, survival simulator.

Nobody would have even started playing RPGs if D&D was "realistic", (with all that xenophobia, bigotry, religious persecution, disease, famine, warfare, primitive medicine, primitive science, fear of the unknown, fear of travellers, fear of loners, indentured servitude, unhealthy living conditions, even less healthy work conditions etc. etc. of the "real" medieval European world - no chance the real world of that time will let people game out their own personal empowerment fantasies)

Big difference between a game set in a world where you can literally shake hands with a demon (just make sure to count your fingers afterward) and talk with a dragon (better from a nice safe distance) while strolling along with a character than has enough hit points to survive the equivalent of ten or twelve sword thrusts to the heart and a game set in the real life world.

And before the slings and arrows come my way (not to mention fireballs and lightning bolts) I love D&D and if I could find a game would still play it today (have a very nice 15th level paladin with Holy Sword ready and raring to go, let alone his buddy, a seventh level monk)

[StainlessSteelCynic]

No insult to D&D is implied, AD&D 1st edition was my first RPG (in 1990) and I still have all my books - all I'm saying is GDW tried to make an interesting gameworld for people to play. So I feel that there's no need to worry over the realism factor if it's causing problems, particularly if it just makes things that much harder for the PCs without any fun for the Players.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I think though the tendency is to look at things that are supposed to model our world so closely and when they deviate we cry foul.

I for example don't like the "canon" of T2k (v1) so I change it, but not so much so that you'd not recognize it.

[Targan]

If you are going for realism, methanol production will not work as it does in the game. While it makes for interesting gameplay it is not possible given chemical and biological restrictions. I still cringe a bit whenever i see someone mention it in a discussion of large scale post apocalyptic logistics. I understand it counters canon, but to me it is actually less realistic than zombies.

That definitely bears repeating, Kato. Thanks for the reminder of those important discussions on methanol. In T2K ethanol is the only viable alcohol fuel option, and that most likely means a conflict with food production.

You know, it is just a game.
It's not meant to be a hardcore, realistic, survival simulator.

Nobody would have even started playing RPGs if D&D was "realistic", (with all that xenophobia, bigotry, religious persecution, disease, famine, warfare, primitive medicine, primitive science, fear of the unknown, fear of travellers, fear of loners, indentured servitude, unhealthy living conditions, even less healthy work conditions etc. etc. of the "real" medieval European world - no chance the real world of that time will let people game out their own personal empowerment fantasies)

Over the years I ended up playing more Harnmaster than D&D. And Harnmaster, if run as intended by the designers, is generally fairly depressing. For all the reasons outlined above by SSC.

[General Pain]

Anyone have any canon references to Belize

Hi James.

I made these some years back, not canon at all but IMHO a good addon to running games down there...

http://thebigbookofwar.50megs.com/DOX/0-SOURCEBOOKS/

[General Pain]

if you are going for realism, methanol production will not work as it does in the game. While it makes for interesting gameplay it is not possible given chemical and biological restrictions. I still cringe a bit whenever i see someone mention it in a discussion of large scale post apocalyptic logistics. I understand it counters canon, but to me it is actually less realistic than zombies.

For more information see here http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.phpt=226

epic comment kato

[Targan]

OT: Tragic destruction of heritage sites

It seems many of the people of Belize care so little for their cultural heritage that the deliberate destruction of Mayan pyramids for use as road fill has become fairly commonplace. I'm horrified:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-16/mayan-pyramid-razed-for-road-fill/4692894

[Olefin]

Its unfortunate that happened but humanity has a long history of similar things- look at what people did to the Coliseum in Rome - whats left is the shell - all the marble and much of the other stone in the building was used to build homes and fortifications after Rome fell.

Most of the Ancient Seven Wonders ended up being similarly pillaged over the years - look at the Pyramids in Egypt to see how much of the facing is left on them.

[pmulcahy11b]

It seems many of the people of Belize care so little for their cultural heritage that the deliberate destruction of Mayan pyramids for use as road fill has become fairly commonplace. I'm horrified:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-1...d-fill/4692894

Just utter, wanton, epic laziness.

[RN7]

I can't find any canon reference for Belize in my files, the nearest information about the area would be from the "Gateway to the Spanish Main" sourcebook which only really deals with Grenada. Chris Callahan's long lost Twilight 2000 page was dedicated to South America, particularly US forces in Panama which are quite detailed. There was also some information about the Panamanians, the Colombian Army, and a bunch of guerrilla outfits operating out of Colombia, Panama and Costa Rica. If anybody wants to have a look at it I can post it up.

Loren K. Wiseman's Merc 2000 Gazetteer has a nice scenario about a war between Guatemala and Belize.

Belize is an independent country supported by the British armed forces. Guatemala lays claim to the territory on the basis of several pre-19th Century historical treaties between Great Britain and Spain. The discovery of several large oil deposits beneath Belize is the main reason the country is of interest to the outside world, particularly the large global oil companies. The Belizean oil fields are currently controlled by Petro-Belize SA, owned by the government of Belize with several oil companies as major shareholders including the big British ones (Shell, BP). Those oil companies who don't have a share in Petro-Belize SA are supporting the Guatemalan's. The Guatemalan's attacked Belize believing the British wouldn't react. The British received advance information about it from insiders within the oil industry enabling British intelligence to reinforce its Belizean contingent using funds and resources from British based companies in the area. The Guatemalan attack soon stalled and for the past 18 months both sides have taken up see-saw attacks and counteroffensives.

Guatemala
Before the war, the Guatemalan Army was organized as an anti-guerrilla force, and split into more than three dozen separate battalions parcelled out among the country's 19 military districts. A few specialist units like the armoured company, the airborne battalion, or the special forces group rounded out the small force. As part of the preparations for war, six infantry brigades were formed by lumping three battalions together with a recon squadron and a few support assets. Mercenary troops were also used as cadres fort the brigade organizations, and also were used to fill in command positions in the battalions, rather than form separate units.

The Guatemalan Army has devoted four infantry brigades to the war, and also an armoured company, two special forces battalions (KAIBAL), three independent infantry companies and an airborne battalion. The rest of the Guatemalan Army is involved in anti-guerrilla operations in the interior of Guatemala. The Guatemalan Infantry Brigades are light infantry equipped with M16A2 or Galils, M60 MG's and 81mm mortars. Each brigade has a recon squadron with 4x Israeli made RBY Mk.1 armoured cars, and also an artillery group with 8x towed 105mm howitzers and 8x two and half ton trucks. The other units use the same small arms as the regular Army brigades. The armoured company has a HQ company with 1x M41 and 1x Jeep and three tanks platoons with 3x M41's each.

The Guatemalan Army is backed by the Air Force with two ground attack squadrons (8x A-37 each), a transport squadron (4x An-26 transports), and a helicopter force of 2x AH-1, 2x AH-6, 4x OH-6, 8x UH-1. The Guatemalan Navy also contributes nine SAR-33 type coastal patrol boats (three on the Atlantic), and 12 PBR type patrol boats on the Atlantic side of the continental divide.

Belize
The Belizean side consists on a British infantry regiment (British and European mercenaries), two local Belizean Brigades, and a mercenary air mobile battalion (Americans). The British and Belizean units use British Army small arms; L85/86's, FN FAL's, Sterling SMG, L7A1 GPMG's, 60mm mortars and Carl Gustav RCL. The airmobile battalion use American M16A2's, M60's, Dragon PIP, M214 6-pacs, Mk-19 GL and Stingers. The British Infantry Regiment has five infantry companies and uses Land Rovers, and is backed by a recon squadron with 6x Fox, a weapons platoon with 4x FV432 with 81mm mortars, an anti-tank platoon with 4x Spartans with Milan's and an air defence platoon with 4x towed Bofors 40mm AA guns and 1 ton trucks. The two Belizean brigades have three infantry companies and also have a weapons platoon, an anti-tank platoon and an air defence platoon each.

The Belizean's are backed by a force RAF aircraft (8x Harrier, 2x Chinooks) and 4x British Army Lynx's. The airmobile battalion also has 20 helicopters (2x AH-1, 2x OH-58, 16x UH-60). Belize also has four PBR-type patrol boats for river and coastal operations, as well as another six Napco raider river patrol boats co-opted from the coast guard. Belize pro-British sponsors are rumoured to have supplied two American experimental XM23AACVsfor use in riverine operations.

[Olefin]

If you look at Belize you have the following there for sure in the 90's

BATSUB - British Army Training Support Unit Belize

- 70 soldiers acting as trainers for both the British Army and the Belize Defense Force

- 25 Flight Army Air Corps - two Westland Gazelles and two Westland Lynx - which included a detachment of the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers (REME0 to perform maintenance - based at the Philip S.W. Goldson International Airport in Belize

the British battalion and the Harriers left in 1994 but with the V1 timeline you could see them still there - or possibly re-deployed as the war started if the Soviets tried to destabilize the country with guerrillas as they did in Africa

also could be soldiers there as well going thru the training that got stranded there after the TDM and the strikes on Britain at least until they could arrange transport to get home

[lordroel]

the British battalion and the Harriers left in 1994 but with the V1 timeline you could see them still there - or possibly re-deployed as the war started if the Soviets tried to destabilize the country with guerrillas as they did in Africa

Could a Territorial Army of the British Army not be deployed in Belize freeing the regular army battalion for combat use.

[Rainbow Six]

Could a Territorial Army of the British Army not be deployed in Belize freeing the regular army battalion for combat use.

Short answer is yes.

Problem is where said TA Battalion would come from. In the V1 timeline the TA Battalions were tasked with either reinforcing the British Army of the Rhine or United Kingdom Home Defence. There were no "spare" TA Battalions available so to redeploy one to Belize would mean pulling it from one of those two areas.

You'd have to ask the question as to how important Belize would be in the overall scheme of things - would it warrant pulling a Battalion from Germany or the UK I doubt it very much - best case would probably be a reinforced Company.

In the V2 timeline there would have been even less TA Battalions.

(Obviously the above is based on RL TA deployments - if you opt to have hypothetical regular / TA Battalions raised during the course of the War in your T2K world it becomes more possible)