More stupid U.S. Marines

[Raellus]

Waiting for Something,

No one is saying that the SS was the most evil military organization in history. Many, many others have committed terrible attrocities. I could go on and on and on with example after example. That's not the argument here.

The argument that I am trying to make is that the SS, as an organization, was pretty awful and should not be lauded or celebrated by the fighting men and women of the United States, a nation instrumental in the downfall of the Nazi regime/war machine.

Your argument appears to be that the SS are simply misunderstood and are being treated unfairly by us "politically correct" types. In your reply to Legbreaker, you imply that the Nazis/SS did some good things and that, taken as a whole, the good the Nazis did outweighs the bad. Is that a fair characterization of your point? What, may I ask, are the good things that they did? I'm curious.

[Eddie]

What, may I ask, are the good things that they did? I'm curious.

They had great bonfires.

Books! I'm talking about the books!

[Fusilier]

What, may I ask, are the good things that they did? I'm curious.

Made cool uniforms ja!



Sorry Rae... I know you are trying to have a serious conversation.

[copeab]

Made cool uniforms ja!

Remember, the side with the better uniforms loses

[Legbreaker]

Yes, many, MANY other entities have committed attrocities of varying horror, however as far as I am aware, only the Nazis (and perhaps USSR) made a concerted effort to specifically wipe out an entire ethnicity with clinical and industrial precision.
We can indeed abhore the actions carried out by others, but only the nazis deserve 100% of our revulsion and loathing.
By comparison, people like Charles Manson barely got their toes wet in the shallow end of the kiddies paddling pool.

The question of this thread should be simple. Should the US Marines be using insignia which can at best be mistaken as that of another unit guilty of some of the most heinous crimes against humanity - or not?
My answer - HELL NO!!!

[micromachine]

Hello All;

I enjoy the commentary on this site in general, however, I am finding this somewhat offensive. Cooler heads need to prevail on this, as we all have polarized opinions on the subject of "SS" runes and the morality of soldiers and the command structure. That it has garnered this much attention is disturbing enough. Let's just say that elite forces tend to try and emulate other elite forces and move on.

Just my opinion!

[Webstral]

Micromachine, on almost any other subject I'd endorse your advise about moving on. The presence of Nazi symbology in the US military is a subject on which I cannot agree to disagree, for all the reasons I have already given. If put into practice in the US, the Nazi philosophy would mean the end of the American way of life and the end of life for tens of millions of Americans. Regardless of motivation, we cannot tolerate open Nazi hero worship and/or emulation in the US military. If these guys want to be like the SS, they are in the wrong military. If they simply admire the fighting prowess of the SS (which is very understandable), they need to find a way of expressing themselves in a way that does not juxtapose the national colors and Nazi symbols.

[manunancy]

I'lm wondering what kind of reaction would have be caused by a display of soviet-related iconography. Unlikely since they're generaly viewed as losers, but I'm curious.

[micromachine]

Hey Webstral;

I agree with you, however, we are dealing with a different sort here. Let us all remember that soldiers are not the same as average people. They are volunteers for the most part who are at peak strength and conditioning, who are taught they are "supermen" from basic training onwards. I know that is not in any field manual, but let us be honest. No military wants the soldiers to be a collection of worry warts and politically correct hole punchers, as this will lead to conflict. Once again, I do not condone this activity, however I can see the attraction to it by young soldiers who probably are not totally aware of the meaning of the symbology.
Look at some of the legendary figures of US soldiery(or any countries military) and I am sure you will see at least some of the "dark side" of these figures has helped make them legends in the first place.
As for Soviet area icons in the military, look at the NTC training units. They use modified US pattern gear ( to look like the real deal), captured or purchased equipment, and not to mention Soviet style tactics. Taken out of context, that would look like an endorsement of the same!

[waiting4something]

Waiting for Something,

No one is saying that the SS was the most evil military organization in history. Many, many others have committed terrible attrocities. I could go on and on and on with example after example. That's not the argument here.

The argument that I am trying to make is that the SS, as an organization, was pretty awful and should not be lauded or celebrated by the fighting men and women of the United States, a nation instrumental in the downfall of the Nazi regime/war machine.

Your argument appears to be that the SS are simply misunderstood and are being treated unfairly by us "politically correct" types. In your reply to Legbreaker, you imply that the Nazis/SS did some good things and that, taken as a whole, the good the Nazis did outweighs the bad. Is that a fair characterization of your point? What, may I ask, are the good things that they did? I'm curious.

I am not saying that bad actions by any group should be over looked over another. The nazi's just get this spot light, because they are the token or popular bad guys of history. So it's always Nazi this Nazi that. Nobody evers says Khmer Rouge this Khmer Rouge that. They just aren't popular enough. I know your thinking "wow" how could you make commit like that, but that is how people judge things by. If you don't get the converage, you don't get the votes. Good things that the SS did? They killed Russians of course! But on a more serious note, they where some hard ass fighters and had a war mongor type idealism to them which would and does appeal to a young man that wish to go out and kill. Take away some of the racial tone of the Nazi Germany and you have a society any war mongor could be proud of.

[ShadoWarrior]

Look at some of the legendary figures of US soldiery(or any countries military) and I am sure you will see at least some of the "dark side" of these figures has helped make them legends in the first place.

Name a legendary US military officer of the 20th century who had an evil, tyrannical, genocidal trait. Go on...

[waiting4something]

Yes, many, MANY other entities have committed attrocities of varying horror, however as far as I am aware, only the Nazis (and perhaps USSR) made a concerted effort to specifically wipe out an entire ethnicity with clinical and industrial precision.
We can indeed abhore the actions carried out by others, but only the nazis deserve 100% of our revulsion and loathing.
By comparison, people like Charles Manson barely got their toes wet in the shallow end of the kiddies paddling pool.

The question of this thread should be simple. Should the US Marines be using insignia which can at best be mistaken as that of another unit guilty of some of the most heinous crimes against humanity - or not?
My answer - HELL NO!!!

My reference to Charlie Mansion was used to show that he is the most popular. Everyone knows the name, maybe not what the story behind him was, but they know the name. You say names like John Wayne Gacy, Richard Speck, or Richard Ramirez half the people look at you like they must be some forgotten about actor that recently appeared on dancing with the stars. Of course Richard Ramirez does have a slick sound to it and John Wayne Gacy does have the whole John Wayne thing going for him.

[waiting4something]

Name a legendary US military officer of the 20th century who had an evil, tyrannical, genocidal trait. Go on...

2ND LT William Calley of the My Lai Massacre is the easiest that comes to mind. Sure it was only 22 people, but sometimes you have to take baby steps. Gerenal Macarther aka "dug out Doug" was all for nuking the shit out of everything and leaving his own personel to rot. General Curtis Lemay was another one that had no probelm with doing a Nuclear Holocaust.

[Fusilier]

Name a legendary US military officer of the 20th century who had an evil, tyrannical, genocidal trait. Go on...

General Jacob "kill everyone over the age of ten" Smith demonstrated such a trait in the the Filipino campaigns during the early part of that century. He wasn't alone either.

[Legbreaker]

The Khmer Rouge are a good example of evil, but even though they decimated their own country and managed to kill a sizable percentage in a short time, they didn't exactly industrialise it like the nazis, nor did they wage war on an entire continent and import victims. They were also a fairly unsophisticated and unskilled lot who I'm sure nobody looks up to (even the nutcases). They certainly didn't have any elite units or insignia anyone wants, or is able to copy like the SS (which is what this thread is really all about).

Evil in any form should not be glorified, and that includes the use of their symbols, wherever they may come from. What the marines in question did is just plain wrong and there's no defending them. Whether or not those in the photo were aware of the significance (and I'm sure at least some were) somebody around them certainly would have, and should have slapped them all over the back of their collective heads for the idiots they were.