Canon Germany to RDF tank transfer

[Olefin]

The only problem is that the French dont have that kind of influence in Saudi yet - its gettng there but the US is still the top dog there - now Kuwait is a different situation but Saudi is still mainly American influence.

Now let the war end and the Soviets get kicked out of Iran and things will change.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

How plausible is this....
IMC I had the smaller Gulf States side with the US/UK (FWIW I have a slightly larger MEFF with one Armd Bde, one Abn Bde, one Cdo Bde, one Gurkha Bde)
Saudi's stay out of it and eventually "invite" the French in to help them keep Neutral. The French in turn convince the Saudi's to divest themselves of all their non-French made equipment, promising that they would provide French made equipment in return. The French then "donate" this equipment (plus ammo) to CENTCOM (the French definitely DO NOT want the Soviets controlling any oil). However these shipments to the Saudi Military keep getting mysteriously held up. So by 2000 the French have full control of Saudi and her oilfields while the Saudi Military is essentially de-fanged of any heavy equipment.

I also was wondering if Egyptian factories were producing their M1's or were they just putting them together from kits sent over from the US. If they were producing them would it have been more cost effective to have CENTCOM
purchase them from Egypt and then have the US shipping over uparmour kits to maintinence units in Theater to add-on

Kits; IIRC the Egyptians however have a "mostly-built-here" tank plant (engines and armor are shipped to them, all else is license-built).

[Olefin]

Remember that the only real tank factory in the Middle East is the one in Israel - the one making the Merkava - where they make it from scratch. The industrial base just isnt there, even today, to be able to make their own modern tanks.

A lot of expertise just isnt there - for instance Saudi Arabia lacks facilities to do aluminum armor welding so things like Bradleys and M109's are just beyond their capabilities.

[Raellus]

I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere (in an Osprey book, I think), that Iraq was liscence-building its own T-72s (a basic Soviet/Russian export version).

@Louied: Since you asked for feedback... I don't think any country not in desperate straits would willingly give up heavy weaponry like MBTs based on a promise of future military aid, especially during wartime. The French really couldn't guarantee that they could get their stuff to the Saudis safely with the war at sea (the Med sounds pretty chaotic and Soviet commerce raiders would certainly be active around Cape of Good Hope) so such a deal would be a huge gamble on the part of the Saudis. Heck, such a proposition could easily be seen as a ploy to get the Saudis to drop their guard and allow the French to waltz in and take direct control of the oil facilities.

[Matt Wiser]

Iraq was building the T-72, in kit form. They were known as the "Lion of Babylon" tanks.

The idea of the Saudis buying a lot more tanks and spare parts than they really needed is very plausible and very likely, IMHO. IMI in Israel may still be up and running on a limited basis, and they'd be a source for 120-mm main gun rounds, among other things. In our CSU Fresno group, we didn't go home, but went via the Med to Israel, and then to CENTCOM. Before going through Jordan and Iraq to Iran, IMI refurbished all our vehicles. Not to brand-new specs, mind you, but a good enough job nevertheless.

[Panther Al]

The idea that the Saudi's would stockpile stuff by the shipload during a cold war than never cooled down is very reasonable. Even with the drawdowns with the Cold War IRL, I've seen some of the stockpiles they have tucked away in the oddest places. The Kuwaiti's are almost as bad.

[Legbreaker]

Before going through Jordan and Iraq to Iran, IMI refurbished all our vehicles. Not to brand-new specs, mind you, but a good enough job nevertheless.

What did you pay them with, and how did you stop the Israelis simply requisitioning them I'm assuming it was just a small group and not a battalion plus.
I can't imagine the Israelis doing anything out of the goodness of their hearts, and with the chaos surrounding them on almost all sides, they wouldn't be about to pass up a chance to "acquire" more gear on the cheap.

[Matt Wiser]

Simple: some of the proceeds from our Kelly's Heroes type operation. A few hundred gold bars paid the bill for that-and R&R in Tel Aviv....As for numbers, well, when you procure (read: hijack) two Frosch-class LSTs-and bribe the crews with some gold bars...we had the carrying capacity to take our group where we wanted to go, and our vehicles and equipment, too. We didn't have that many, but spread them out on both ships. Four M-1A1s, a T-72, a pair apiece of Bradleys and M-113s, an MTLB, four Hummers, a HEMITT cargo truck with the still-but most of our fuel was "liberated"...., and the prize: a Ural 375 truck with the gold. The amount of gold was lifted from the movie: 14,000 bars.

[Olefin]

Simple: some of the proceeds from our Kelly's Heroes type operation. A few hundred gold bars paid the bill for that-and R&R in Tel Aviv....As for numbers, well, when you procure (read: hijack) two Frosch-class LSTs-and bribe the crews with some gold bars...we had the carrying capacity to take our group where we wanted to go, and our vehicles and equipment, too. We didn't have that many, but spread them out on both ships. Four M-1A1s, a T-72, a pair apiece of Bradleys and M-113s, an MTLB, four Hummers, a HEMITT cargo truck with the still-but most of our fuel was "liberated"...., and the prize: a Ural 375 truck with the gold. The amount of gold was lifted from the movie: 14,000 bars.

14,000 bars - ok that would pay for it for sure!

[Legbreaker]

If I was the Israelis, I'd be inclined to just take it all.
"So you've got five worn out tanks and a few APCs..."
"What are you going to do about the company of Merkava 3's, battery of 105's, and battalion of infantry we've got surrounding you"

[raketenjagdpanzer]

If I was the Israelis, I'd be inclined to just take it all.
"So you've got five worn out tanks and a few APCs..."
"What are you going to do about the company of Merkava 3's, battery of 105's, and battalion of infantry we've got surrounding you"

Also perhaps "offer" them the "opportunity" to stay as "guests" of the Israeli Defense Force.

[James Langham]

Quick thought, how much does all that gold weigh

[Legbreaker]

Quick thought, how much does all that gold weigh

From Wiki:

The standard gold bar held and traded internationally by central banks and bullion dealers is the Good Delivery bar with a 400 Troy Ounces nominal weight. However, its precise gold content is permitted to vary between 350 oz and 430 oz. The minimum purity required is 99.5% gold.

One troy ounce is equivalent to 31.1034768 grams.

Therefore, an average bar of 400 oz is 12.44 kgs.
14,000 bars is a massive 174.17947 metric tonnes!

A Ural 375 has a cargo capacity of 9,920 lb or 4.5 tonnes. Just a small shortfall there I think....

If the limiting factor was the 4,500 kilogram capacity of the truck, each bar would be just 320 grams, or 0.7 lbs

4,500 kilograms of gold at today's value is worth US$242,246,565.00 - about a quarter of a BILLION US dollars!!!
174.17947 tonnes is an astounding US$9,376,528,511.34 - isn't that approaching the US national debt

[James Langham]

Nobody ever thinks how much gold weighs, best examples are Die Hard 3 and Rome. Must rewatch Kelly's Heroes to see if they make the same mistake.

And yes paper money can be almost as bad (and is bulkier...)

From Wiki:

One troy ounce is equivalent to 31.1034768 grams.

Therefore, an average bar of 400 oz is 12.44 kgs.
14,000 bars is a massive 174.17947 metric tonnes!

A Ural 375 has a cargo capacity of 9,920 lb or 4.5 tonnes. Just a small shortfall there I think....

If the limiting factor was the 4,500 kilogram capacity of the truck, each bar would be just 320 grams, or 0.7 lbs

4,500 kilograms of gold at today's value is worth US$242,246,565.00 - about a quarter of a BILLION US dollars!!!
174.17947 tonnes is an astounding US$9,376,528,511.34 - isn't that approaching the US national debt

[Bullet Magnet]

As I recall, there was a mention in Kelly's Heroes that the total cash value of the gold was $16 million. If someone were able to find the price of gold circa 1944, we could get a reasonable figure as to the actual weight of gold they heisted.