Australia/New Zealand in the Twilight War

[headquarters]

dominions and the crowns generals

Just watching a documentary about Robert Menzies, Australian Prime Minister having gone to England during WWII where he tried as hard as he could to talks sense into Winston Churchill and watching as plan after plan of Churchill's fell apart, despite Menzies having told him they would. Particularly the disasters in North Africa early on, in Greece and then the fall of Singapore. So very often Australian and New Zealand troops have been sent to the other side of the earth and used as cannon fodder. What a stupid waste. ANZACs make REALLY good troops. Used well we can really make a difference. I accept that casualties, sometimes heavy casualties, happen in wars and Australians know that as well as anybody. But the damned British threw away tens of thousands of Australian and New Zealand lives during WWII pretty much for bugger all.

Churchill didn't want to antagonise the Japanese before they were at war with Britain and wasn't willing to send sufficient naval assetts or air cover to the Pacific so there was no way Singapore was going to hold out once the Japanese started fighting the Allies. You know how many soldiers were captured by the Japanese in Singapore About 130,000 for cryin' out loud, 15,000 of them Australians. Most of those 15,000 Australians were subsequently killed by the Japanese or worked to death by them in captivity. It makes me want to scream with frustration because we Australians will fight to the death if required and we are courageous in battle. I'd rather die than surrender, personally. Just make it quick.

talked to a canadian feller once who claimed that the Canadians saw Montgomery and several other top brass as war criminals for sacrificing tens of thousands of Canadian troops in hare brained schemes.

[jester]

my party kept a deranged and chemically damaged cannibal in a steel cage for some time . For scientific reasons ..right..

That kind of reminds me of 28 Days Later, where the rogue soldiers had "Billy" was it tied up out back. Interesting mascot, just wonder about feeding time,

"Joe, you get to feed Billy tonight,"

Joe, "Feed im what"

Evil leader smiles,

As his former comrades grab hold of him and drag him off kicking and screaming.

[chico20854]

In the original Twilight timeline Australia would support South Korea, the US and the UK against any moves by China and or North Korea. We did in the Korean War (in which Australians fought with great bravery) and we would do it again.

...

In the traditional Twilight timeline Australia is involved in its own nasty little war with Indonesia after Indonesia invades first Papua New Guinea and then northern Australia. IRL if the Indonesians invaded Australia I would do anything in my power to join the fight. Anything.

The DC group is going on the assumption that Australia is more or less intact, but large areas are out of communication with the central government. The Indonesian invasion fell apart from a combination of really fierce resistance, being totally outclassed, huge distances of really harsh terrain between their landing beaches and any point of strategic importance, and Indonesia falling apart as the nuclear exchange went on and the world gradually fell apart - no resupply.

Australia sent a mech brigade to CENTCOM, and an ANZAC brigade to Korea. They also sent SAS troops on the Cam Ranh raid written up on my website.

Darwin is under the "guidance" of its local military commander and cut off from the rest of the country. This is based on IRL the railroad to Darwin just being completed in the last 5 years or so.

In late 2000, the US, Australia and New Zealand are still firm allies.

The rest will come out in the Survivors Guide to the USA! (someday, hopefully in 2009!)

[spielmeister]

Well, in our Gurps t2015 homebrew universe, we had an expatriate unit of Australians operating the southern luzon area. The backstory was that they were originally destined for the mideast but they had to divert suddenly to luzon when all the nukes started flying. By the game's start, they managed to set up a well-run cantonment in the camarines sur area of southern luzon and got some geothermal power plants up and running again, laying the basis for restarting civilization in that part of the world again. the area is near the mayon volcano so there's a lot of geotherm being tapped.

I never got to run it but one of our planned scenarios were the Aussies pushing north to link up with the last remnants of the GRP and the US contingent near Manila to make a stand against the Chinese mechanized offensive fueled by a trickle of oil from the restarted spratleys rigs. As I recall the PCs were supposed to be part of a unit charged to clear the main arterial highway through southern manila.

maybe one day i'll get it going again.

[headquarters]

good one

That kind of reminds me of 28 Days Later, where the rogue soldiers had "Billy" was it tied up out back. Interesting mascot, just wonder about feeding time,

"Joe, you get to feed Billy tonight,"

Joe, "Feed im what"

Evil leader smiles,

As his former comrades grab hold of him and drag him off kicking and screaming.

must remember that one .

or ofcourse - have some one forget to lock up properly hahaha...

[Targan]

The DC group is going on the assumption that Australia is more or less intact, but large areas are out of communication with the central government...

...In late 2000, the US, Australia and New Zealand are still firm allies.

The rest will come out in the Survivors Guide to the USA! (someday, hopefully in 2009!)

I like everything written in that post. It sounds quite realistic. I have no doubt that you guys in the DC Working Group know your s**t. I look forward to reading your work.

[chico20854]

(copied from Recovery Plan thread)

Chico, I realise that given the vast scope of the work you guys have been doing, your thoughts on Australia would necessarily take up a very small portion. When you mentioned in your last post that Darwin was a link in the air corridor from CENTCOM's AO back to the CONUS it immediately got me thinking. I don't think that most of the rest of the world really understand the truly vast amounts of natural resources that Australia possesses.

On a global scale Australia is not a major oil producer but we do produce oil in not inconsiderable amounts and have large reserves (mostly off the NW and northern coasts and especially between Australia and East Timor) which remain largely untapped. But even more significantly Australia has truly enormous reserves of natural gas and coal (and I mean seriously enormous) and even after the Twilight War some ability to tap them.

And while Australia may not currently produce all that much high tech gear it has more to do with commercial realities pre-war than ability. Australia is a first world, high tech nation. If Australia's manufacturing infrastructure remained largely intact after the Twilight War it would (in my opinion) be an invaluable partner for the huge task of rebuilding the power of the USA. If Darwin was a major staging point for US air and sea assets to and from the US and the Middle East I'm sure it would receive US land, air and sea military assets to enhance its security and or provide assistance to the Australian Defence Force to do its job better.

Good point Targan! I have a feeling that many people are unaware that much of the goods produced in China are made from Australian raw materials in factories powered by Australian coal!

On the oil production, I'd have to check how much production was in 1996 vs now. I know that with the independence of East Timor offshore oil exploration has really taken off and is continuing to do so (At the office I'm currently working on relocating a deep-water oil rig from the Gulf of Mexico to Australian waters). For T2k it's really a question of what was going on in 1996 and would the resources be available during the war to continue at the RL rate. For the recovery plan, the exploration and extraction resources are very limited and it makes sense to at least initially concentrate them where there is existing military forces, infrastructure (partially damaged but repairable) and where the oil is easiest to get to (Middle Eastern crude is much cheaper to extract than offshore deepwater). On a longer term, developing oil production outside the Persian Gulf is absolutely essential, as the political stability in the region is not there and the transportation a real hassle, especially with limited ability to repair existing ships and produce new ones.

As for Australia helping the US, we'd love it. The big issue we are facing, however, with all international trade, is that the U.S. really doesn't have anything to trade with less damaged nations other than a trickle of oil from CENTCOM (and each drop of oil to a trading partner slows recovery of the US), military force (which will decline as equipment wears out) and scrap steel (a great deal of which is irradiated). Australians are great, generous people, but you have a (reasonable) expectation to be paid, and the U.S. really has nothing to pay with. (Recovery of 80 tons of gold from a pond in NYC might make a difference, but even that has to be judged carefully).

The security situation for Australia seems pretty good, IMHO limiting the demand for US security assistance. The Indo invasion (if any) has withered out by 2000, the long-range aircraft and missiles of the world have either flown or are out of fuel or touch with HQ and the US and France operate the only remaining navies. Piracy (to a certain extent on a scale comparable to what is occurring off Somalia right now, but with sails instead of diesel-powered boats) is endemic worldwide, so US Navy escorts of convoys and active and aggressive patrolling of offshore oil fields would be helpful (given the size of the RAN). Of course, providing the ADF with the occasional tanker full of JP-8 and diesel would certainly help!

[Brother in Arms]

This is a good thread everyone!

By the way Targan I bet you would actually be holding and SLR L1A1 over your head and yelling "WOMBATS!"

They probably have tons of them still locked up in storage somewhere.

Brother in Arms

[Graebarde]

ANZACs make REALLY good troops. Used well we can really make a difference. I accept that casualties, sometimes heavy casualties, happen in wars and Australians know that as well as anybody. But the damned British threw away tens of thousands of Australian and New Zealand lives during WWII pretty much for bugger all.

AND they did the same in WWI. I've had the opportunity to interact with the boys from down under on occassion in my long ago military career. They were guys you wanted to cover your back.

[ChalkLine]

talked to a canadian feller once who claimed that the Canadians saw Montgomery and several other top brass as war criminals for sacrificing tens of thousands of Canadian troops in hare brained schemes.

That was actually Mountbatten, not Montgomery. Most Commonwealth troops loved Monty because he avoided attritional battles and concentrated on tactical manoeuvre.
Mountbatten sacrificed a vast amount of Canadians and British in the lunatic Dieppe Raid that had no objectives and no possibility of a good outcome. He was actually called 'a murderer of hundreds of my countrymen' by a senior Canadian general. He was eventually murdered by the IRA along with his family in the 70s. The whole project was compromised before its launch, but Mountbatten needed an operation to justify his position.
As an aside, Monty spent a lot of his youth in Hobart, where I live. He was very distant to his immediate family but had close contacts with his Australian friends.

[ChalkLine]

I've got an excuse for Australian and New Zealand troops in Europe on my website, I'll repost it here;

ANZaSPN
Australian, New Zealand and South Pacific Nations UN Force
A stranded UN composite unit in Germany, suitable for Southern Pacific characters.

Deteriorating world conditions due to the general European engagement made it very difficult for the various Australasian UN contingents to continue their missions. Supply routes often passed through war zones and disengagement agreements were increasingly ignored as a slide to world war accelerated. Urgent meetings with UN officials and various Australasian states took place 1996 in effect pleading for troops to stay on the ground as US forces, for so long shouldering the lions share of peacekeeping, were increasingly recalled for NATO duties.
The situation was only made worse when Turkey invaded Cypress in 1997, all Australasian UN troops were pulled out and sent to a temporary facility at Heidelberg, Germany. Ostensibly, this move was only until the official approval could be sought through worsening global communications from France, until then unengaged and still largely intact, for a transfer across the border and out of Europe using a French port as air transport was no longer a possibility. Living on what was in fact American largesse in a hard pressed country, all of the oeAustralian, New Zealand and Southern Pacific Nations troops felt a deep need to do something more than just sit in a camp and use up rations, after repeated requests from the various commanders in the base cautious UN approval was given to begin rear area security duties, at the same time Australasian and South Pacific citizens trapped in Europe were directed to the Heidelberg camp for eventual evacuation home.
Many troops were struggling to come to terms with their new role when the French finally settled the question of using French ports by invading the Ruhr valley and in the process encountered the UN ANZaSPN enclave. At first French and UN troops kept a cautious distance, but a nasty incident between a Tongan patrol and a French unit soon had the French troops surging forward as the UN troops fell back as fast as they could. There was particular bitter fighting at Eberbach as rearguard troops sought to slow the French juggernaut. Many UN troops will never forgive the French for what they see as a betrayal, up until a week before the French invasion most UN troops still thought theyd be evacuated through Bordeaux.
During the retreat down highway 50, many of the UN peacekeepers had their first experience of large unit action and unfortunately the casualty figures reflected this. As main force NATO units were diverted from the front to deal with seemingly unstoppable onslaught, ANZaSPN troops were sent to cantonment at Augsberg. Over the next two years the 24th Panzergrenadiers at nearby Nurnburg adopted the strange little UN unit and due to the complete breakdown of international communication in 1999, incorporated them into the 1 German Corps command structure.

Units at the ANZaSPN enclave:

Australia.
UNTSO, from Syria, Lebanon and Israel.
12 unarmed observers.
ONUC, from the Congo:
An army medical team, tropical-medicine doctor, surgeon and medical orderly.
UNFICYP, from Cypress.
20 Federal Police
UNPROFOR, from Herzogovenia,
A Brigadier, elements of 1st of the 15th New South Wales Lancers, 10th Light Horse, the Royal Australia Regiment, the Royal Victorian Regiment, Special Air Services and various support services (Signals etc.)
UNSCOM, from Iraq,
12 Chemical/Biological warfare experts, 9 officers of the Australian Intelligence Corps.
UNDP, from Mozambique,
2 Deminers from the Royal Australian Engineers.
MFO, from Israel and Egypt,
A Major-General, 27 troops from various units.

In addition, approximately 2500 Australian nationals caught holidaying, involved in overseas work or consular staff and security are incorporated into the Enclave, many have joined the unit and provide a pool of manpower available to the Enclave command structure.

Wow, that's about eight years old. I have to get in there and fix up the appalling grammar.

[Marc]

Good job Chalkline. Again, I've discovered and interesting background to give the old timeline a new point of view.

[chico20854]

That's some good stuff, Chalkline!

I'll revise the Recovery Plan's Operation Omega section to give the survivors of this contingent a ride back to CENTCOM, where they can join the Australian mech brigade operating there. I'll also have the ANZAC Bde in Korea evac'd to Australia at the same time as 8th Army pulls out. Do you have a preferred port/ports of debarkation for them

[chico20854]

On the oil production, I'd have to check how much production was in 1996 vs now. I know that with the independence of East Timor offshore oil exploration has really taken off and is continuing to do so (At the office I'm currently working on relocating a deep-water oil rig from the Gulf of Mexico to Australian waters). For T2k it's really a question of what was going on in 1996 and would the resources be available during the war to continue at the RL rate.

Ok, I found a 2000 Australian government report on oil and gas. Its at http://www.ga.gov.au/image_cache/GA6117.pdf It seems to have some good stuff in it. One thing I notice - wells that produce 2,000 barrels a day are "plugged and abandoned." Not in t2k!!!!

[Targan]

Ok, I found a 2000 Australian government report on oil and gas. Its at http://www.ga.gov.au/image_cache/GA6117.pdf It seems to have some good stuff in it. One thing I notice - wells that produce 2,000 barrels a day are "plugged and abandoned." Not in t2k!!!!

Yeah, that was part of what I was trying to get across in my earlier posts on Australia's natural resources - maybe not in population but certainly in resource reserves Australia really is an awakening giant. Another point is uranium, Australia has absolutely heaps of it! The uranium used in the first Trinity nuclear test in the USA during WWII was mined at the location of the current Roxby Downs uranium mine in South Australia.