US Recovery Plan

[fightingflamingo]

I'm with Targan, deep breaths everyone...

I'm hoping Chico isn't going to publish, because were working on stuff, not out of frustration.

[kato13]

Kato, I humbly throw myself on the mercy of the court if you feel I broke any rules here, but those of you who have hounded Chico Expect nothing but my contempt.

This is probably a bad time for me to be voicing my opinions as mentally I have a lot of raw nerves exposed due to real life situations, but I feel I have to say something.

My general comment to those who complain is. Go out and put in 1000s hours of work and then give it away and then we can start talking.

Overall I feel complaints about others work are silly. If you don't like it IGNORE it. If some percentage chose a different path from what I chose, great for them.

Do I need to make a separate forum for "non canon" submissions like 2300AD people necessitated.

For some strange reason we are now acting like a traditional forum. Not as venomous of course but it seems to be going down that path.

I also have to say that the characters actions can easily undo canon. If the Corpus Christi is lost with all hands due a stray shot against the saboteur then "canon" has been changed.

Po's detonation of the nuke in Lublin probably changed canon.

If Cutter's ambush succeeds and Reset falls into the hands of the KGB canon would be changed.

A shot killing the Black Baron would invalidate an entire module.

I like options. I like the free exchange of information here. I respect everyone who contributes. I may not agree with everything they say but I try to understand that opinions vary. This board has opened my eyes on certain opinions I have had, and reinforced others. I have seen things posted which I vehemently disagreed with but I still respected the opinion as best I could.

[stilleto69]

No chico - come back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't leave us!!!

[Mohoender]

I stand with Targan

Hello people

I agree with Targan, take a little time to breath. No reason to jump at each other throats. This has been a friendly (if sometimes pushy) forum and I hope it should remain like that.

Canon is fine, non canon is fine as well. This is a game, a role playing game and canon certainly was never intended to be an absolute. According to the designers themselves "Twilight 2000 is not meant to be a serious projection of future trends, it is escapist entertainment".

Therefore, canon is highly respectful, but it can be changed at will as long as you end up with their first intention: For the entertainment to be complete, players have to be able to engage in "willing suspension of disbelief".

For my part, changing canon has been a long time pleasure. Sharing it, discussing it and reading other players views is another.

Enjoy and good play everyone.

[Littlearmies]

Don't worry folks, there will be no more publication forthcoming from me on this or possibly any other topic for a while. So you can discuss canon all you like...

Chico, I hope my solitary comment on this thread has not contributed to your unwillingness to publish anymore of your work. I appreciate what an awful lot of effort it is to put this kind of thing together.

Frankly there is some stuff in The US Recovery Plan I disagree with - I think once the tac nukes came out most US carriers would be at least unserviceable in pretty short order - but on the other hand I find it perfectly logical that more boomers would survive than "canon" indicates for the reasons you've given. But then I've also thought that GDW's targetting plan was pretty strange in places (I've never understood why Sunny Point and Bayonne weren't whacked at an early stage for instance) so I've never been overly obsessed with "canon".

I'd be more than happy to read more of your work - I'd say that most of the comments in this thread were in the order of happy discussion than anything else - perhaps you should view the 78 posts so far in this thread as a demonstration of the interest shown in your work rather than a concerted nit-picking attempt.

And what would the forum be without nit picking As long as it is done in a friendly way

[Legbreaker]

NOBODY is saying Chico and the DC group aren't doing good work. They have produced some damn fine stuff and they should certainly keep at it.

The problem seems to lie with those who feel canon, in any of it's published variants (1.0, 2.0/.2, 2013) isn't relevant and should "officially" (for lack of a better word) be changed to fit their own perceptions. These changes are fine for those involved, but the apparent attitude of some of these people to want to force the alterations upon others, is totally unacceptable in my view.

And so back to my core point. We have a set, published timeline of events. It doesn't match up with reality, but it's not supposed to.
Those wishing to make changes should most certainly feel free to do so, but they should identify such as what it is - an alternate view.

Now, as to PCs changing the world, I really don't see that as a problem at all. To me, anything that occurs in a game is perfectly fine, and in fact should be encouraged. Canon really only covers up until the dates in the relevant published reference books (July 2000 for the early books, mid 2001 for most of the US settings).

If there was no hope of altering the situations in the published materials, then what would be the point of playing the game My arguement goes more towards those wanting to change the past rather than the future.

To summarise:
Expansion of canon = good
Wholesale alteration calling changes canon = bad

[Mohoender]

The problem seems to lie with those who feel canon, in any of it's published variants (1.0, 2.0/.2, 2013) isn't relevant and should "officially" (for lack of a better word) be changed to fit their own perceptions. These changes are fine for those involved, but the apparent attitude of some of these people to want to force the alterations upon others, is totally unacceptable in my view.

And so back to my core point. We have a set, published timeline of events. It doesn't match up with reality, but it's not supposed to.
Those wishing to make changes should most certainly feel free to do so, but they should identify such as what it is - an alternate view.

To summarise:
Expansion of canon = good
Wholesale alteration calling changes canon = bad

Hello Leg

I'm not sure I understand you on that point. Canon is always relevant as you cannot make any change if you don't start with it. In the meantime, it is irrelevant and certainly not mendatory. If that was not the case, you would not have more than one single version. Actually, some of us consider v1.0 to be canon, others consider v2.0/2.2 to be canon...

We discussed this with smokewolf concerning T2013 a few month ago. The final conclusion was: the timeline is only an indication. If it fits you, fine, if it doesn't, change it as much as you want. I have the feeling that this statement is valid for all version of T2K.

However, I agree with you on one point, changes shouldn't be forced upon others. Nonetheless, I never felt that this was the case for anyone. Then, it seems fair to defend a point and to share it. That the only way you have if you don't want to be stuck with your own limited views. When anyone starts a thread (including myself) I often disagree (and yes, on second reading, I can even disagree with myself or find out that I'm out of the subject) but I never found that they had no point at all.

I have never noticed any wholesale alteration calling changes canon.

My point is simple: this is only entertainment and RPG, the only limit is your own imagination and you shouldn't restrain it in ways.

[seppun1]

I thought I would post my support for Chico. I sincerely hope that he does continue to share his ideas with us. I will admit that the only reason that I stopped my lurking of the threads and actually say something is because I wanted to know more.

I thought the US Recovery Plan was excellent. I loved following along to see how the returning US forces were striving hard to recover what was lost. I also want to say that you and the group made some rather thoughtful and intelligent decision which I thought fit in quite well. I had read the history of Version 1 the other day. The Recovery Plan did well to fix the gaping holes that were made (and a few contradictions)

Again, I give my support and hope to read more of your excellent work.

[Olefin]

Love to see that someone has put together an alternate timeline like this. I played T2000 back when it first came out and what eventually killed it was the total revulsion the group took to the way the US modules, especially Kidnapped, Howling Wilderness and City of Angels, were written.

I know that some of the writers of T2000 are part of this forum and frankly they might not like me saying this. But they took a game that made sense and basically took all the fun out of it. And the fact that most of the rest of the world, as depicted in the modules, wasnt going thru that kind of total killoff of its population really showed that what they wanted to do was turn the game into Aftermath, with no surviving government and military at all, at least in the US.

Our Gamemaster bought them and then said that they were total player killers and that he wasnt prepared to cheat that much to keep our group from getting wiped out over and over.

After looking at them we agreed with him. Plus we also played Traveller and we had just bought Traveler 2300 AD. And the timeline as depicted made absolutely no sense with that what was happening to the US as depicted in those modules. With the drought as depicted and the total destruction of the forces of both MilGov and CivGov the US would have taken hundreds of years to ever get back on its feet, if ever.

As to arguments about canon and ignoring it. Canon can be ignored when it makes no sense and kills a game. And in the case of Twilight 2000 the so called canon of the American modules is exactly that.

Which is not to say they were all bad. Armies of the Night, Red Star/Lone Star, the Airlords of the Ozarks, Allegheny Uprising and The Last Submarine Trilogy make sense (even though I highly doubt only one SSN would still be around - what happened to all the Ohios as only one was ever mentioned being sunk) and are good modules. Even Urban Guerilla, while presenting a detestible group, is playable although just barely.

But after that, the canon should be ignored if it goes off into total unreality. And that is exactly what it did. An alternate reality has to be believable - thats why Turtledove's books are so well received and others arent.

[Olefin]

the point that people are trying to make is that if canon is wrong then it needs to be either changed or modified

and frankly the canon destruction of the US Navy to where only one SSN is left in the whole world, the fact that US has no carriers left of any kind afloat except one off of Iran, that the US goes through a wholesale depopulation in Howling Wilderness and break up of its remaining military while in Europe and Iran there are still intact large scale forces (i.e. see return to Europe and RDF modules) shows that the canon is flat out wrong

And since GDW is no longer around and there is no offical Twilight 2000 anymore, then why not make changes to correct the glaring errors in the game that turned many off of it in the first place

Things like for instance no M88A1's in the game when the US was operating hundreds of them during that time period or the fact that the US, desperate for armored vehicles, just let at least 300 Sheridans sit and rust instead of pressing them back into service, or the simple fact that the TMI nuclear plant in Harrisburg, not hit by any nukes, is never mentioned in Alleghany Uprising and neither are several very important PA NG depots in the area (Indiantown Gap for instance)