Equipment for a Unified Germany

[Raellus]

Perhaps this has been dealt with before on the old forum, but I thought I'd bring it up anyway. Please note that this assumes the v1.0 timeline.

What kinds of uniforms and equipment would former DDR units assimilated into the Bundeswehr use I'm wondering about uniforms and small arms in particular (big ticket items like Soviet model AFVs and arty would no doubt continue on in use and not be replaced). Would they continue to use their old issue DDR gear Would they be issued new or cast-off West German gear

By the mid to late 90's, the RL [unified] German Army was well on its way to replacing its old, 1957 pattern green combat fatigues and old, M1-style steel pot helmets with the current Flektarn [sic] camo pattern fatigues and balistic helmets. Also, the 7.62mm G3 was on its way out, to be replaced with the newer 5.56mm G36. I'm going to assume that this transition would have taken place even had the Cold War continued and reunification not taken place.

On the other side of The Wall, the DDR army, as of around '87, was still using a rather antiquated "Raindrop" pattern camo uni and odd-shaped steel pot helmet. They were equiped with DDR manufactured AKMs, RPKs, and PKMs.

Would the newly absorbed T2K DDR troops receive phased-out 1957 pattern green combat unis from reserve stocks Would they transition to NATO weapons or keep their perfectly serviceable AKs

What do ya'll make of the G11 I figure it still wouldn't have been adopted had the Cold War continued, for the same reasons it was passed over in the real time-line. It was still a pretty neat design. Caseless ammo, a 100-round mag, and no muzzle-rise on full auto until the last round left the barrel!

[Matt Wiser]

Going Home mentions that former East German units still had their Pact weapons and vehicles. Nothing said about uniforms, though I'd bet that they'd get new cammies ASAP. Their original weapons still work, and there's still a lot of Soviet weapons and ammo in East Germany once it's cleared of Ivan. No sense in letting it go to waste, and it's also appropriate that since Ivan made that stuff, he should have it returned to him-by fire, of course.

[Snake Eyes]

What do ya'll make of the G11 I figure it still wouldn't have been adopted had the Cold War continued, for the same reasons it was passed over in the real time-line. It was still a pretty neat design. Caseless ammo, a 100-round mag, and no muzzle-rise on full auto until the last round left the barrel!

I try not to let too much realism get in the way of my fun so in any stock Twilight 2000 Euro campaign I was running back in the day I always had the G-11 come complete with an integral under-barrel 40mm grenade launcher (like an HK-69) and a starlight scope. Expensive and not necessarily general issue in that configuration, but available nonetheless.

Can't reload the ammo, so it was only ever useful as long as the party's supply of 4.7mm Caseless lasted. Oh, but the damage you could do in the meantime. The ammo scarcity eventually became self-balancing, especially as the campaign moved farther from the Central European starting line.

At some point one of my players made me aware of the LSW version (or the LMG-11) so I statted that out too, but nobody ever used one. I don't recall that any of us ever knew about the supposed PDW variant. In retro, I suppose it's kind of munchy, but - like I said - it's all about having fun.

[pmulcahy11b]

Going Home mentions that former East German units still had their Pact weapons and vehicles. Nothing said about uniforms, though I'd bet that they'd get new cammies ASAP. Their original weapons still work, and there's still a lot of Soviet weapons and ammo in East Germany once it's cleared of Ivan. No sense in letting it go to waste, and it's also appropriate that since Ivan made that stuff, he should have it returned to him-by fire, of course.

As far as the uniforms, there's three ways to look at that.

1) You want them to be wearing the same uniforms as you, to prevent friendly fire due to mistaken identity and to impress on them a sense of unity of purpose.

2) There isn't enough time and uniforms available to actually do that.

This could lead to mixed uniforms as a transitional measure.

BTW, I'm not a big fan of each branch of the US military wearing their own combat uniforms. Not only is it wasteful of funds, but see my note above about mistaken identity and friendly fire.

[Targan]

At some point one of my players made me aware of the LSW version (or the LMG-11) so I statted that out too, but nobody ever used one. I don't recall that any of us ever knew about the supposed PDW variant. In retro, I suppose it's kind of munchy, but - like I said - it's all about having fun.

I had an LSW variant turn up in my campaign. The PCs treat it like a relic though and it has only been used in anger once.

[Adm.Lee]

I'd go with the thought that uniforms are way easier to manufacture than weapons, and at least those would change over. Since the soldiers would need to be at least partly re-trained anyway, it would make it easy to keep them out of the line and re-equipped ASAP.
Why would they need re-training The jargon and doctrine has got to be way different, and the intel guys are going to want to debrief at least the officers and vet them for loyalty. I'm sort of surprised that they divisions weren't broken up and new, integrated, ones formed. Say, using the WG reserve brigades as cadre while the EG leaders are worked over.

[chico20854]

Uniforms and signal gear would be about all I would change.

Vehicles and heavy weapons - too much to replace during an active war, too much retraining required.

Small arms - Muscle memory among your infantrymen is invaluable. Maybe train new recruits on G-3, G-36 or G-11, but what do they do when they get assigned to a squad that has all AK's (Either way, replacement training will be complicated - the Germans would have to run a regional-based training system like WWII, where units were fed from dedicated unit replacement depots back home that drew from a certain region).

Uniforms - no big deal.

Communications and electronic gear - whenever possible, I'd replace. The Russians might have built "back doors" in, they have better knowledge of how they work and how to spoof them, and spare parts are going to be hard to find. Assigning Bundeswehr communications specialists to NVA formations would be a good way to ensure loyalty or at least watch over what was going on in those units - certainly not iron-clad, but useful, and can be done under the cover of providing trained signallers to service/operate NATO-standard communications equipment.

Munitions - send 'em back to the Russians, one round at a time.

As the war goes on, you'd probably see recovery teams following the front lines to salvage parts from or return to service damaged Pact vehicles, collect & sort small arms, ammunition and other supplies needed to keep the NVA (and other allied forces equipped with Pact gear, like the Egyptian army, the Polish Free Legions and some IPA units) in operation. As former NVA units are brought off the line for rest & refit they might be re-equipped with NATO standard gear as it becomes available. They might compress former NVA units (i.e. reform a NVA battalion, at half strength, into 2 companies of NVA vets with Pact gear and 2 companies of new replacements with NATO gear), which, while disruptive, maintains some unit cohesion and avoids having a mix of systems within a smaller unit.

[pmulcahy11b]

You're going to at least want to give the East Germans the same helmet as the West Germans. Seeing a head pop up with an enemy-style helmet is likely to get you dead real quick, especially if it's dark.

[Raellus]

You're going to at least want to give the East Germans the same helmet as the West Germans. Seeing a head pop up with an enemy-style helmet is likely to get you dead real quick, especially if it's dark.

The old DDR steel helmet is unlike any other. It looks kind of like the helmets the rebel soldiers wear in the first Star Wars movie. There's really no mistaking it for a Soviet model steel helmet. So, if you could train your W. German troops not to shoot at the old E. German model, you could get by. On the other hand, steel helmets in general are not nearly as effective as newer Kevlar ballistic helmets so they'd probably be replaced fairly quickly anyway.

It seems like large scale replacement of DDR gear (including unis) would be tricky once the European war kicked off. There wouldn't be much time to pull former DDR units from the line for retraining and new (or old), West German equipment. Perhaps as units rotated out of the line, this would take place more systematically. So, by 2000, all German units would at least have similar uniforms, although many would continue to be equipped with a mix of NATO/WTO weapons and vehicles.

I know it's 50 years on, but the German army in the later stages of WWII excelled at creating and employing Kamfgruppen (Battle Groups) from the remains of various decimated units. This experience would probably help the Bundeswehr with the OTJ reorganization of units in the early stages of WWIII in Europe.

So, in order of priority, the following items would be replaced (from sooner to later):

Communications and electronics
Uniforms
Small Arms

I think we all agree that DDR/Soviet manufactured AFVs, artillery, and other "big-ticket" items would continue on in use indefinitely.

Thanks for all of the input, guys.

[B.T.]

Hi there, everybody!

I did find this forum on this evening. So, if I am a little late with my answer, that tells you why.

One thing about the uniforms: The rain-drop-patterns, that are/were used by the Czecheslovak and Polish forces are not distuingishable from the East-German uniform, at least in the middle of a fierce firefight! Therefore it would have been complete menace, not to equip the "new" comrades with older style German uniforms! "Flecktarn" and the older "Steingrau-oliv" (Well, that's the official name of the OD uniform-color) are both possible.

I know, that in real life a lot of units were trained in using the AKs. These should not be kept as service rifle, but as they were there, the German conscripts received training with them.

All the rest has been said (Well, written, to be more precise!) before. Vehicles and such would have been kept, I'm certain about that.

I personally believe, that during the war, most soldiers of the Bundeswehr had getten rid of their G11 rifles - no chance to reload the cartridges! As soldiers tend to use equipment they are familiar with, most ex-East-Germans might have tried to get back "their" AK, whereas West-Germans would have tried to get a hand on one of the older G3 rifles.

Wow, my first ever posting in English ... that took it's time. Hope, I my use of the English language is not too bad. I'll do my best to increase my LNG (English) skills, promise

[kato13]

Welcome aboard B.T.

Glad you took the time to post. I am sure everyone here will be glad to get your LNG skill moving upward even though you did extremely well for a first attempt.

[Raellus]

Wow, my first ever posting in English ... that took it's time. Hope, I my use of the English language is not too bad. I'll do my best to increase my LNG (English) skills, promise

Welcome to the board! Your English is just fine.

Thanks for the input. Your point about the similarities between the various WARPACT "raindrop" pattern camo uniforms is a good one.

Since, by '96, most front line W. German units would certainly have been issued the Flektarn pattern cammies, there would probably be plenty of surplus Steingrau-oliv fatigues lying around to equip front line units of the former GDR army. There'd probably be a few units where you'd see a mix-and-match assortment of Flektarn and OD.

I agree on the G-11 being gradually abandoned in favor of the G-3 with many former GDR units sticking with the locally produced AKM.

I know that in some folks' T2K universe, the Bundeswher was also starting to transition to the more conventional 5.56mm G-36 as of '96 or so. I've also encountered the 5.56mm version of the G-3 (HK-33) in German service in some games as well.

[Marc]

Wow, my first ever posting in English ... that took it's time. Hope, I my use of the English language is not too bad. I'll do my best to increase my LNG (English) skills, promise

Welcome B.T.! Here you have another apprentice trying to upgrade the English language skill level. My online dictionary is always burning when I'm in this forum and I'm getting used to the spellchecker spitting on my face without mercy. I must past a morale check roll before trying to post a long reply. And, usually, by the time I've post a reply to a thread, there are already three more replies that probably contain the same information I wished to post...So, don't worry...

[Mohoender]

Hello and Welcome B.T. your english is fine. Anyway, I keep rewriting and correcting myself all the time.

I think I put that somewhere already but the Ukrainian made T-72/120 would perfectly fit the T-72/120 that is described in cannon. I didn't know for the uniforms and for the planes, hopefully IFF was invented.

http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/t72-120.php

[rcaf_777]

Hope this help, some infor I found on the web