Twilight 2013 - How are you going to use it?

[Haven]

Well, speaking as a 25 year old:

I like both timelines and love Cold War history and books and have read nearly every fiction coldwar goes hot book that would be considered 'main stream' (Clancy, Coyle, Peters, etc)..............


......but am currently playing a non-Coldwar gone hot game.



"Well that just proves kcdusk correct!"



Kinda, but I would attribute it more to the fact that i am a 'civvie' and never been in the military than anything else.

So, ORBATs, SOPs, and general 'high level' C&C of the military structure and operation doesn't really make sense to me so it is easier for me to create a 'Red Dawn' campaign using the rules.

Or now... the Twilight 2013 rules, because they are better.

[CStock88]

Ahoy there, new person chiming in.

I've been interested in a "Twilight" type of game for some time, now. Even though I'm "only" 20 years old, my interest in history has always drawn me towards the good ol' East-West Conflict. I got into Twilight 2000 v2.2 a while back, thanks to my friend getting a hold of his dad's old stuff; despite the inability to play the out-of-his-league civilian type, it was still loads of fun.

Ultimately, however, despite my personal interest in the Big Bad Red Menace and things May Have Been, it's really not that culturally relevant to me. I mean, honestly, I was 3 years old by the time the whole Cold War thing was over and done with. The aftereffects, of course, are relevant, but it took a while for me to be old enough to care about them While I do think it's interesting, and I like reading up on it... ultimately, I was born too late for it.

Which is why I'm actually really excited about Twilight: 2013. While there are some things in the new timeline that I don't really like (just as there some things in the old timeline I don't really like!), I find that, combined with the rules in the new edition of the game, it's all far more relevant to significant events that occured in my lifetime.

Oh yeah, plus, I dig how the new rules result in characters being incapacitated like no one's business. Neat way to emphasize that the best way to fight is to not fight at all, and, barring that, hide behind something really solid.

[Mohoender]

I made my own timeline which start roughly at the same time but with the war starting in 2011 (nukes falling from mid-2012 to fall of 2013) and things settling down around 2016.

My personnal opinion is mostly about the timeline. I find some qualities to it (actually I came up with some similar stuff). However, I find it too much focused on terrorism and i find some severe drawbacks.

The other weak point is about the equipments but that is from personnal taste. I like to have a wide range of equipments to draw on.

About rules, I have no real clue, I haven't read it and I'm growing tired of learning new rules. Nevertheless, I have seen some interesting points and a great advantage: they are not using the D20 system put up by Wizard.

Law might have been a little harsh when saying that it was amateur work but, actually, he is right also as one can consider the RPG community to be entirely made of amateurs (with some wrongly thinking of themselves as professionals/the sole exception probably being wizard of the coast). We are all amateurs around here, and I find that great. Some of us have great websites (they will recognize themselves) that I found more than valuable. Not to talk of this forum of course.

I'm answering a question I wasn't asked but that was one of the critics I had to face when editing my own game (being amateur) a few years ago. I found that funny coming from publishers who were making less money than the retail shop next door.

As a conclusion, let praise amateurs, they are doing a great job but, hopefully, that is open to critics. Anyway, from 25 years of role playing (Jesus time goes by) I only remember one rule: rules are merely made as guide; do and play as you please .

[kato13]

I don't want to speak for law but I understand his position to a degree. When T2013 started development the people from there who originally contacted this board were quite arrogant and condescending to our members. I will admit it left a very bad taste in my mouth which has never really gone away. (Just want to note smokewolf has been totally honorable and I have no beef with him at all)

The DC working group (of which Law is a member) have crafted wonderfully logical and beautifully flowing time lines. They are working harder than anyone I know to provide us the best and most accurate background information. If in his opinion his work is superior I do not doubt him. The evidence I have seen supports that position IMHO.

The true irony is that Law will give his work away while T2013 will charge for it (not that I blame them). The "amateur" who does it only out of passion not personal gain will actually have more esteem in my eyes, even if the quality of the work was equal.

That being said we are all friends here and I hope that T2013 never creates factions and just gives everyone more options on whatever path they choose.

[Raellus]

Welcome to the old folks' home, CStock88 and Haven!

I think it's cool that you young bucks are into T2K at all. I can't really blame ya'll for going with the timeline that seems most relevant to you.

As a kid growing up during the later years of the Cold War, the v1.0 timeline feels most real to me. I remember when Red Dawn came out. My parents wouldn't let me see it but the trailers on TV both terrified and energized me. Terrified because I lived in Colorado. Energized 'cause I got a kick out of daydreaming about taking on the Russians with my friends just like the Wolverines. I guess you'd have to live through the fear (paranoia even), distrust, and jingoism of that era to fully appreciate the original Twilight scenario. When I first got my hands on the v1.0 box, I felt like I was seeing a glimpse of a very real, very grim future.

I also like alternative history feel that the v1.0 timeline has now. It's the world that could have been had USSR not collapsed and, for the most part, feels very real.

Anyway, if T2013 gets you excited about military-esque adventuring in a post-apoc world, then it must be doing something right. I'm eager to get a look at it.

BTW, before anyone starts ribbing me about making sure to get the large print edition, I'm 34.

[pmulcahy11b]

Well, I have to buy it first -- unfortunately, this month I had a couple of emergencies. The heater and AC both died (it's central air, so their tied together), and that cost $2500 to fix. At the end of last month, one of my little guys, Winston, was diagnosed with diabetes, and he's still having to get a lot of blood tests and rechecks to get his insulin dose right. And next month is probably out too, with Christmas and continuing checks for Winston. So it may be January before I get a look at T2K 2013.

I must say, though, I'm beginning to wonder about the timeline aspect, based on what's written here. Some other things may be out of whack as well. Maybe a T2K 2013 v2 in it's future

[pmulcahy11b]

BTW, before anyone starts ribbing me about making sure to get the large print edition, I'm 34.

Awww, you're just a kid, Raellus! You're younger than my baby brother!

[Raellus]

Awww, you're just a kid, Raellus! You're younger than my baby brother!

Thanks, Paul. I needed that!

[Mohoender]

I don't want to speak for law but I understand his position to a degree. When T2013 started development the people from there who originally contacted this board were quite arrogant and condescending to our members. I will admit it left a very bad taste in my mouth which has never really gone away. (Just want to note smokewolf has been totally honorable and I have no beef with him at all)

So Are some of them among the amateurs thinking of themselves as professionals If that's the case Law is right.

[pmulcahy11b]

So Are some of them among the amateurs thinking of themselves as professionals If that's the case Law is right.

That's not really a valid idea -- aren't all of us here basically amateurs at publishing and game development And yet, as long-time players and GMs, we probably know more about the subject than so-called "professionals." Who are these professionals selling their goods to anyway Us. If the first set of buyers aren't happy with the product, word will get around -- and the product will be improved or perish. That's the way the marketplace works.

[Mohoender]

That's not really a valid idea -- aren't all of us here basically amateurs at publishing and game development And yet, as long-time players and GMs, we probably know more about the subject than so-called "professionals." Who are these professionals selling their goods to anyway Us. If the first set of buyers aren't happy with the product, word will get around -- and the product will be improved or perish. That's the way the marketplace works.

What is a valid idea Forget about the sentence you quoted it might not be clear. I'm more or less saying the same than you (look at my previous posts).

The thing about buyers being happy or not about the product is not always true. Bad words can come out before you get any buyers and the words getting around are not that trusty. Many game don't get the time to improve and they perish from a lack of interest justified only by advices taken from people who never bought the game.

In the case of twilight 2013, they will need some improvement, and a lot of add-on. I found that sad for a 348 pages book. I haven't look at most of the rules yet, on the other hand, but I have already seen some interesting things in them (they speak in km/h and in meters; great I'm growing tired of speaking in cliks or watever fony measures). I would love to see some clearer elements on newer equipments, however: What is a muscle car There are no illustration at all in this section (erf!) and very few vehicles. By the way there is a very good point for them: they recommend this forum.

[CStock88]

Well, all I can really say in follow up, is that everyone's entitled to their own opinions and preferences, naturally. The Twilight 2000 scenario is still really enjoyable. I also understand what you're saying about the people who initially contacted this forum - I'd be put off by that sort of behavior, too.

And by the way, if the DC Working Group's stuff is of the same quality as the thread about the JCS, CENTCOM, and Operation Omega, then I gotta say, I'd be really thrilled to read their finished product! Looks really cool, and is, IMHO, a major update on the Twilight 2000 scenario concept.

[Mohoender]

Well, all I can really say in follow up, is that everyone's entitled to their own opinions and preferences, naturally. The Twilight 2000 scenario is still really enjoyable. I also understand what you're saying about the people who initially contacted this forum - I'd be put off by that sort of behavior, too.

And by the way, if the DC Working Group's stuff is of the same quality as the thread about the JCS, CENTCOM, and Operation Omega, then I gotta say, I'd be really thrilled to read their finished product! Looks really cool, and is, IMHO, a major update on the Twilight 2000 scenario concept.

Agree. By the way my opinion is that of a customer as I bought it. Then, they are giving some good explanation on their own website. I don't agree with everything they say but their position is well defended.

[Graebarde]

Awww, you're just a kid, Raellus! You're younger than my baby brother!

And I have kids older than the lot of you.
But we have a three generation Twilight family too.

(Wondering what that has to do with 2013.. )
Grae

[chico20854]

That's not really a valid idea -- aren't all of us here basically amateurs at publishing and game development And yet, as long-time players and GMs, we probably know more about the subject than so-called "professionals."

I guess I am an amateur. I've never made a penny (and don't really want to) by publishing game materials. That doesn't mean that we (in the DC Group) don't aim to turn out product as good as or better than what professional game designers turn out. If fact, we'd like to turn out "improved/revised" versions of the original canon materials, using the familiar GDW appearance and improved graphical content and revised/more detailed background. Paul, your web site is far above and beyond what the professionals have turned out by a huge margin!

As far as subject matter knowledge, we (like many others here) are not amateurs. Law, Flamingo and I are current or former NCOs with over 10 deployments between us. We are all school-trained historians and I've got a master's in national security policy and have worked on logistics at both the retail and wholesale level - in a period of a few years I worked on deploying both multiple corps and my company. As Kato alluded to, when the 2013 project came looking for volunteers the attitude was not very positive - since we had not published games before they discounted our professional RL abilities.

From the material that has been leaked (I have yet to see the finished product) the 2013 timeline is much more fantasy than the v1 timeline was in 1984. We're working on answering more of the v1 timeline what if posed by GDW in 1984; IMHO the 2013 timeline what if requires a lot more answers and fantasy to get there from here.

With that said, I hope that the 2013 rules are more an improvement over the v1 and v2.2 rules. I personally never liked the v2.2. adapted Traveller character generation system and the pretty clumsy v1 combat rules. With 15 years of RPG development between v2.2 and 2013 I can see how the rules could be radically different. I see rules as a tool to help the GM tell a story - and now we have a fifth method (v1, v2.2, Gurps, 2013 and the Targan-system-that-shall-not speak-its-name) to tell three possible related stories (v1, v2 and 2013 timelines). I think this is great, to each their own.

CStock88, I'll start a new thread and repost what we've put out so far.