German III Corps?

[Legbreaker]

I feel the issues you're overlooking is that the 2nd Marine were in a unique situation - almost cut off from support and virtually immobile.

There were no airlifts of fuel, no supply ships (they were all on the bottom of the ocean, along with their hopes of continued operations) etc for them, and they were stuck in the lowland deltas and esturies of Poland with next to no fuel to use in their VERY heavy tanks, APCs, SP artillery, trucks, motorcycles, etc.

At best they were able to conduct foot patrols as light infantry against an enemy which, while numerically and argueably technically weaker, could run rings around them in their old T-55s, T-62s, horseborne cavalry, etc. Basically, what makes the marines strong was little more than a lodestone around their necks, and virtually eliminated any offensive capabilty they possessed until several weeks later when replacement fuel stocks reached them (and the overall situation in Europe was turning nasty). In my opinion, they would have been lucky to survive if they faced decent opposition.

In my assessment, I also had them strung out along the coastline between Gdansk and Elblag in units of approximately 4-500 men. With no way of regrouping, each unit could have been easily picked off by Pact forces. This deployment was because they were intended to take and hold the area and act as a sor tof carpet for the 8th as they advanced quickly through the region. The 2nd Marines were also to have supplied engineering support for the crossing of the numerous watercourses in the area.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

...Leg, seriously name three defeats of US Marines

Hmm, this is dangerously close to territorial pissings.
The USMC have had just as many setbacks and failures as any other military force but the US generally tends to gloss over their failures, for example you can find textbooks that mention the failure of USMC to achieve their objectives at Belleau Woods but very few mention the fact that some of them broke and ran (I have read that the USMC are taught that they have never fled from a battle, something even the drill instructors teaching that myth know is a lie). Whether you want to call them failures to meet objectives, defeats, withdrawals or not is largely a matter of semantics but this article is worth reading http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O126-Defeat.html

[Legbreaker]

I did a little digging last night and found that there had indeed been a general Pact offensive into Germany in the summer of 2000. There's next to no info on it though, just a single line in Going Home (I think, I'm at work) in the unit description for the HQ of the 22nd Soviet Army (I think that's the unit). Initially I had thought this to be relating only to the destruction of the 5th, but it's just not worded that way.

There are also references to a number of Nato units not connected to the III German army being involved in action around that time.

It also appears to be implied when looking at all the tidbits of info, that the Pact forces made some impressive gains in the south, which would explain the poor state of defences in that area on the western side of the lines.

I also found that in January and February 2000, UK forces were shifted to the north of the country to consolidate. This may have contributed to the losses in the south.

This offensive, along with the shift of UK forces northward may explain why there is such strength in the north and barely a thin screen of units in the south.

Hmmm, looks like I've made myself more work...

[Raellus]

I did a little digging last night and found that there had indeed been a general Pact offensive into Germany in the summer of 2000. There's next to no info on it though, just a single line in Going Home (I think, I'm at work) in the unit description for the HQ of the 22nd Soviet Army (I think that's the unit). Initially I had thought this to be relating only to the destruction of the 5th, but it's just not worded that way.

There are also references to a number of Nato units not connected to the III German army being involved in action around that time.

It also appears to be implied when looking at all the tidbits of info, that the Pact forces made some impressive gains in the south, which would explain the poor state of defences in that area on the western side of the lines.

I was under this impression too but I can't remember where I read this.

I also found that in January and February 2000, UK forces were shifted to the north of the country to consolidate. This may have contributed to the losses in the south.

That would have created an even more lopsided correlation of forces in both northern and southern Poland.

This offensive, along with the shift of UK forces northward may explain why there is such strength in the north and barely a thin screen of units in the south.

No UK forces are shown in the north on the map in the v2.2 rulebook. They're all down around Berlin. Now you've got me really confused.

Regarding Marines, lets make sure to keep any debate civil (or maybe start another thread).

Legbreaker, it's your fault I want Danes in my Baltic campaign setting! Way back in the day, you had a couple of Danish PCs in your RPoL PbP and I've always thought that was really cool.

[Legbreaker]

My guess is that Nato wasn't expecting a Soviet offensive, or that they felt their own offensive would blunt any drive in the south. It's fairly obvious from the unit descriptions in the books, especially the Pact units, that they'd been well and truely put through the wringer in the last few months after sitting in cantonments for the prior year or two. Up until mid 2000, it looks like the war could still have been "won" by either side but the summer 2000 campaigns drained every last resource either side had left.

The way I see it, the vast majority of units were still in good order up until late summer (a few rogue units behind the lines the rare exception). PCs therefore would still be very used to operating within a structured military environment with an active and relatively capable higher command.

By 2000, almost any nationality can be found almost anywhere with just a little thought and creativity. However, I can't see units larger than individual Plattoons being "out of area" for their nations main units. Take B Coy of the 116th ACR for example. Numbering just a handful of members with maybe a dozen vehicles all told, they are specifically mentioned in several books as a unique situation.

[Adm.Lee]

Some ramblings

I've been thinking more about this, since we opened the question of post-OMEGA Poland. So, a little thread-necromancy here....

In Going Home, the Third German Army has practically abandoned the eastern frontier. What's up with that There's only 1 division in contact (as I would consider it), the rest, including III Corps HQ, have pulled back to the west and north. The British pulled out from around Berlin, too.

For that matter, why is XI Corps pinned where it is There are no Pact or even German units between them and Kiel.

I just re-read most of the above posts. I think Legbreaker is onto something with the "more mobile Polish cavalry." We've mostly all agreed that the appearance of the Fourth Guards Tank Army with diesel in its tanks was a shock. What if the wholesale mounting of those Polish & Soviet troops on horses was another shock Or more specifically, the mobility those troopers obtained against the mechanized NATO forces We have read that both Third German Army and 5th US Mechanized Division had a stop-and-go movement pattern for brewing, something they had probably become accustomed to since 1998 or '99. But formations that could ride circles around them on the days they were halted Bands of riders that could appear to shoot up unarmored vehicle columns That's scary.

So, what if we are looking at a command failure, or a series of the same The commanding generals of III German and XI US Corps are blindsided by this new Pact mobility in their area, and Third German Army is surprised by both the Soviet offensive south of Berlin and the reports of the Guards with real fuel coming up through the Soviet rear.
Let's jack up the tension. Say there are just a few, a very few, sorties by Pact jets at this time. Another "impossible" feat. If the Soviets could put together diesel to get a tank army from Romania to Poland, why not a flight of MiGs, dropping down on an undefended HQ Or a missile strike-- nuclear, biological or chemical Then maybe one or more of the commanders that started the offensive isn't the one around at the end. Some work by Spetsnaz or even an unlucky brush with marauders could do the same.


For that matter, some here have questioned the plan that sent the 5th and 8th Mech divisions helter-skelter across Poland. Or even an offensive in Poland at all, given the conditions in the spring of 2000 Was CG Third Army in his right mind Really (If he isn't what does that say about his staff) How might the command that issues the orders for the, let's say grandiose, offensive of 2000 react when it is evident that the enemy has more mobile forces than he does If Army command gets confused and the Corps commanders are beleaguered by the Pact, I can see things melting away to what I outlined above. If the Army commander isn't nuts, maybe the XI Corps staff might stage a coup when they find out that two of their divisions just drove away (probably with most of the reserve fuel) on nebulous one-way missions. That would certainly set up some command paralysis.
The German III Corps pulls back in the absence of coherent orders from Army. By November, its divisions are mostly up in the far north of Germany. The US XI Corps is feeling very abandoned, both by its neighbor corps and by the Army HQ that stuck it out on a limb, with two of its divisions even further out. Maybe the command is feeling abandoned even by USAREUR, who attached them to the Germans in the first place, and then ordered everyone else home. Were there bad personal feelings among the commanders before the attack I bet there are now.

So, like Webstral's profile of General Thomason, here's my attempt to get into the head of three other commanding generals (or more, if one or more of them were replaced in the campaign). I hope it's clear.

[Targan]

Let's jack up the tension. Say there are just a few, a very few, sorties by Pact jets at this time. Another "impossible" feat. If the Soviets could put together diesel to get a tank army from Romania to Poland, why not a flight of MiGs, dropping down on an undefended HQ Or a missile strike-- nuclear, biological or chemical Then maybe one or more of the commanders that started the offensive isn't the one around at the end. Some work by Spetsnaz or even an unlucky brush with marauders could do the same.

In my campaign working out the Soviets situation in Poland in 2001 was made easy for me by DIA Colonel Richard Stark's go-ahead for Major Po and his group's mission which resulted in Soviet Reserve Front HQ in Lublin being backpack nuked. Obviously that wasn't in canon but it was a very believeable situation IMO.

There is an entry in the rumour tables in The Black Madonna module that one of the nuclear demolition charges laid by withdrawing NATO forces in Czestochowa in mid-July 1997 did not detonate, and it may have been recovered by others:

"When NATO was occupying Czestochowa, they placed a pair of nuclear mines, but one of them didn't go off. It's probably still there, and worth a fortune in Krakow."

In my campaign such a device (a 10kt nuclear demolitions charge as described in The Black Madonna) ended up in the treasure cache collected under the Jasna Gora by Major Florian Filipowicz. I did some online research way back when and found some unclassified information about such devices used by US forces and even have a photo of the exterior casing of one.

One of Major Po's men at the time that they killed Filipowicz underneath the Jasna Gora was a US Army engineer trained to use nuclear demolition charges. Col Stark was more than happy to provide DIA assistance to Po to make the nuke useable again and to send Po on his way to destroy Lublin. In my campaign once Soviet Reserve Front HQ was nuked nearly all Soviet command coherance in Poland soon collapsed. That probably would have happened eventually anyway but the nuking sped the process up. That (naturally enough) took alot of pressure off German forces in eastern Germany and allowed Operation Omega to go ahead more smoothly than it would have done in canon.

[Abbott Shaull]

As I recall very few units of NATO OOB had converted to horse cavalry. I do believe that beside a few units such as Divisional Cavalry at Division level and odd Brigade/Armor Cavalry Regiment had been converted to operate as Horse Cavalry. I do remember that within the US 5th Mechanized Division that their Divisional Cavalry had been operating as horse cavalry for scouting purpose because there was limited understanding that being such during the current condition, were more mobile than if they had retain vehicles.

On the hand looking through several OOB, seems the Soviets and many of their Pact allies had stripped from several units from various levels from Army on down of equipment that was used to bring other units up on equipment. Then the remains of these units were made into horse cavalry when they received their replacement and horses.

One has to remember that even in WWII both Germany and the Soviets had Cavalry Divisions and the Soviet had used larger Cavalry formation against the Germans at time when many wouldn't of thought twice of using such formation due to their experiences on the Western Front during WWI which was the last time the US, UK and France had for all purposes fielded a Cavalry force. Even the way Polish Cavalry was decimated by the Germans in 1939 justified these opinions. Even the Germans weren't too convince of the worth of having horse cavalry unit.

Then forward scenes on the Eastern Front where German and their allies Panzer, Motorized/Panzergrenadier Divisions and Corps were stuck in the mud more or less during spring thaw and the Soviet unleashed their various Cavalry Corps upon the unsuspecting Germans. Same with winter when units had German Panzer/Panzergrenadier had grounded to halt since they were barely receiving enough fuel to keep their motors going. They didn't stop the engines much for fear of not being able to restart them due oil and fuel freezing. For the officers who were fighting on the Eastern Front seeing or hearing there was Soviet Cavalry operating nearby was enough to cause a panic during these times of year.

Now you are a German Division Command X, German Corps Commander Y, and German Army Command Z. The Offensive of 2000 starts know all to well there are various units of the Pact forces that have been converted to Cavalry. Due to their position you don't know what they are really capable of, but you remember what your father, uncles, maybe grandfather and such had told you about large Soviet Cavalry formation in WWII. Since the start of the war you haven't encounter and like many in NATO you downplay their usefulness. Many of the Polish Cavalry units you happen to know about aren't much larger than those formation on NATO side.

You along with NATO Supreme Command Q believe that you can sustain an Offensive and gain most of the outline objectives. This is with the beforehand knowledge that your offensive will go in spurts as Divisions would have to stop to brew fuel. You are hoping at best once a Division has to stop, the one right behind would be ready to leapfrog ahead. At worse case you have this happening at Brigade level which was happening with the 5th Mechanized Division and I suppose it probably what happen at with the 8th Mechanized. The unit that is stop is brewing fuel for it next jump forward, knowing that some may have to be given to the unit moving through their area as a helping hand to keep some forward movement. As this happening you have limited horse cavalry that are protecting your flanks and scouting ahead when you are forced to standstill, and when moving they protect the rear.

One of the things that comes as a shock is the Polish Cavalry seem to be more mobile and are attacking rear areas of the XI Corps and raiding the communication line of the units of the III German Corps. Suddenly units of the US XI Corps identify not one Soviet Army that was in the Soviet Union days before but two complete Armies. One the Soviet Fourth Guards Tank Army seems to have hit the 5th US Mechanized Division head-on blindly. While the other has been identified 22nd Soviet Cavalry Army, combined with reports that other Soviet had been report moving from Souther Poland and fearing being caught in pincer movement, the commanders decide to fall back to their start positions, remembering all too well what they use to hear about the Soviet Cavalry Corps and the destruction they would cause on German units in WWII.....

[kato13]

As I recall very few units of NATO OOB had converted to horse cavalry.

One nice thing about having all the units databased

Cavalry units listed below.
Central Defense Group * Canada
Eastern Defense Group * Canada
Northwestern Defense Group * Canada
Southwestern Defense Group * Canada
Al Amarah Brigade * Iraq (French Allied)
Group Ar Ramadi * Iraq (US Allied)
Group Kirkuk * Iraq (US Allied)
104th Recon Battalion * Netherlands
102nd Recon Battalion * Netherlands
3rd Cavalry Division * Poland
17th Cavalry Division * Poland
12th Cavalry Division * Poland
19th Cavalry Division * Poland
2nd Cavalry Division (ex-2nd 'Warsaw' MRD) * Poland
13th Cavalry Division * Poland
1st Marine Commando Brigade *Turkey
The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards * United Kingdom
The Queens' Royal Irish Hussars * United Kingdom
6th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards * United Kingdom
132nd Cavalry Division * USSR
152nd Motorized Rifle Division * USSR
43rd Cavalry Division * USSR
96th Cavalry Division * USSR
14th Tank Division (Cavalry) * USSR
89th Cavalry Division * USSR
127th Cavalry Division * USSR
9th Motorized Rifle Division (Cavalry) * USSR
20th Guards Cavalry Division * USSR
94th Cavalry Division * USSR

[Legbreaker]

It seems then that the Commonwealth nations (Canada and the UK) held most of the horse cavalry strength of Nato while the US and Germany stayed high tech as much as they could.

[Raellus]

For that matter, why is XI Corps pinned where it is There are no Pact or even German units between them and Kiel.

Yeah, I'm wondering the same thing. It's pretty obvious on the map that I'm working on. There are no PACT units between XI Corps and the German border yet Going Home states that they can't move for some reason and that USAER has given up on them.

Perhaps, as you mentioned, the Soviets nuked a road hub to the west of XI Corps when the Soviet formations broke off their attack (the late summer PACT offensive mentioned in Going Home) or used chem/bio weapons to deny XI corps passage west. If, at the same time, XI fuel stores were spent and/or destroyed (maybe that airstrike or Spetznaz raid you mentioned), they could have been stranded there.

The proximity between XI Corps' cantonments and Pila, seat of the Polish Free Congress, suggests cooperation between the two.

Perhaps the XI Corps commander decided to stay put for some other reason. Perhaps he is ideologically opposed to pulling out of Europe. Perhaps he is of Polish ancestry or has a particularly well developed sense of honor. Perhaps it is a combination of several of the factors listed above.

It's an interesting situation and makes for an intriguing campaign setting c. the winter of 2000-2001.

[pmulcahy11b]

I agree. It sounds more like XI Corps is not pinned -- they just don't want to leave. Maybe they have a stake in the area's future. Maybe they just told their superiors that they were pinned.

[Abbott Shaull]

No if the UK units that were convert I believe would of been the recon role with in their parent unit. Much like the 4-12th Cavalry had been converted to horse cavalry for it mission within the 5th US Mechanized Division.

I think NATO realized the limitations of modern warfare with the lack of fuel. What they failed to realize is similar to what happen to the UK and France with how Armor fit into the new style of warfare.

It kinda like the American Civil War. During most of the war, the cavalry units of the Union Army was used for recon and guarding flanks and trains. They be used to form a skirmish line if need be. The Union Army did use their cavalry force as shock troops until late in the war. When it they had started to use them as such, they were busy as both shock troop and giving the Confederate Cavalry fits. Even though the US Cavalry still had mounted troops into WWII, many of these troop were on border protection along the US-Mexican Border. Which is ironic that the US Border Patrol in some location along the same border still mount patrols on horse back.

Even Iraqi were organized due to the fact they operate in marshy areas of Iraq.

The Canadian ones I am sure it was the same reason why the 1st Cavalry Division up until the start of WWII was still on horse back. There was large expanse of area to patrol. Horse Cavalry is more economically way to patrol the large areas.

Turkey Commando converted probably due to the fact that many of the areas is mountainous. Much like US Special Forces teams using horse during times in Afghanistan. It is means for them to be mobile and not let technology get them in trouble.

Last time the British had used large Cavalry formation was during WWI when the appalling losses dismounted the units and had them fight as Foot Infantry. As for the Germans, their Cavalry was used more in rear area security than front line troops. German has been one of those countries that embraced Panzer/Armor warfare over the old horse Cavalry and really never looked back. I am sure that the Germans would have their eyes open and would look into either raising some new Cavalry units or converting units they already and consolidating more AFVs, IFVs, and APCs to other units.

Ironically it was trench warfare and machine gun emplacement with in the trench network that killed horse cavalry in many military organization eyes. With the invention tanks, armor cars, ifv, apc, cfv, fast moving light trucks (ie jeep), motorcycles, along with helicopter have been used in many place instead of cavalry. Many of these vehicle were created to help fill one role or another that cavalry formation use to take in the military.

At the same time there are still parts of the world where horse cavalry has survived. Of course they aren't the all important shock troops that they once were before, but are effective in raiding and acting the eye and ears of the organization they work for.

What is more telling is the number of Polish and Soviet units have been converted to Cavalry. The Soviets went so far to convert one army to horse cavalry. Even the Cavalry forces of both had operated in WWII, the Polish ones were slaughter against the German Panzer. While the Soviet used their Corps size units during times when the Panzer/Panzergrenadier/Motorized units had been mired in mud or during major operation in conjecture with Tank and Mechanized Corps to exploits break-outs.

There were even some Czech units that had been converted to horse cavalry. I think in one of the module I read where Hungarian units was found somewhere in the modules in and around Poland, and they were I believe mounted. Greece and Yugoslavia regions area would be another location where some more use.

Thank you Kato for responding. I am sure there was ARC or two who had converted into Horse Cavalry but I can't find my copy of the US Army Vehicle Guide. For that fact the Soviet one is missing too..

[Adm.Lee]

I agree. It sounds more like XI Corps is not pinned -- they just don't want to leave. Maybe they have a stake in the area's future. Maybe they just told their superiors that they were pinned.

Yep, that's what I am thinking. There isn't anyone out there, but III German Corps was "driven off" by the suddenly-mobile Polish and Soviet cavalry, there could be a hot crater in there, and the Fourth Guards Tank Army is out there somewhere, while the 5th & 8th Mech Divisions took off with the fuel reserve. Stettin is apparently a ghost town, so they may not want to go through there.

I like the Polish-ancestry angle, but even more I like the psychological breakdown possibility. At Origins War College a year or two ago, someone talked briefly on the phenomenon of commanders breaking down when they saw whole units wiped out. It happened very very rarely to the US in WW2 and Korea, but a lot more on the Eastern Front or to the Germans. The commenter thought that NATO armies hadn't done much to address that kind of psychological stress. I think that may be something to look at in the III German and XI US Corps commanders-- maybe that's why the Germans retreated northwest and the Americans sat down.

As for the Polish Free Congress getting more Polish forces to switch over, the now-permanent presence of the Americans should certainly have been a factor. Even more so if there is a senior American in the Corps who is of Polish ancestry, willing to settle down and make something in his(her) homeland.

[kato13]

Thank you Kato for responding. I am sure there was ARC or two who had converted into Horse Cavalry but I can't find my copy of the US Army Vehicle Guide. For that fact the Soviet one is missing too..

No problem.

I think my prerequisite was either manpower was all cavalry or it had the words "converted to cavalry" in the description. If you find any other units that did a 100% conversion let me know I will change their symbol in my database.

Here are all the units which have any "cavalry" listed under manpower

2/Royal Canadian Regiment * Canada
2/Ontario Regiment * Canada
Central Defense Group * Canada
2/Rocky Mountain Rangers * Canada
1/King's Own Calgary Regiment * Canada
1/Royal Winnipeg Rifles * Canada
Eastern Defense Group * Canada
Northwestern Defense Group * Canada
3/Toronto Regiment * Canada
1/Loyal Edmonton Regiment * Canada
1/Toronto Scottish Regiment * Canada
Southwestern Defense Group * Canada
Al Amarah Brigade * Iraq (French Allied)
Group Kirkuk * Iraq (US Allied)
Group Ar Ramadi * Iraq (US Allied)
104th Recon Battalion * Netherlands
102nd Recon Battalion * Netherlands
3rd Cavalry Division * Poland
17th Cavalry Division * Poland
12th Cavalry Division * Poland
19th Cavalry Division * Poland
2nd Cavalry Division (ex-2nd 'Warsaw' MRD)* Poland
13th Cavalry Division * Poland
The Queens' Royal Irish Hussars * United Kingdom
1/The Royal Hampshire Regiment * United Kingdom
6th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards * United Kingdom
The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards * United Kingdom
132nd Cavalry Division * USSR
117th Guards Tank Division * USSR
135th Motorized Rifle Division * USSR
40th Motorized Rifle Division * USSR
43rd Cavalry Division * USSR
96th Cavalry Division * USSR
157th Motorized Rifle Division * USSR
51st Tank Division * USSR
154th Motorized Rifle Division * USSR
89th Cavalry Division * USSR
127th Cavalry Division * USSR
14th Tank Division (Cavalry) * USSR
9th Motorized Rifle Division (Cavalry) * USSR
24th Guards Motorized Rifle Division * USSR
20th Guards Cavalry Division * USSR
94th Cavalry Division * USSR
1st Panzergrenadier Division * West Germany