German III Corps?

[Raellus]

I posted this in the Poland After Omega thread but I thought I'd mention it here as well since it seems germaine.

Regarding U.S. XI Corps: why do you think SACEUR gave up hope of recovering them during OMEGA I understand that they may have had good reasons to stay put but those divisions represent significant combat power. Blown bridges are obstacles, but not insurmountable ones, especially if one is willing to abandon heavy equipment.

Could the XI Corps have expressed CivGov sympathies Could the "abandonment" of XI Corps have been a political move

The presence of the Polish Free Congress in nearby Pila could be a clue. MilGov was essentially abandoning the PFC to its own devices. What if CivGov made them an offer of assistance Perhaps CivGov had plans to keep a military presence in Europe. XI Corps plus the Polish forces loyal to the PFC could create a relatively powerful enclave in NW Poland- a bridgehead in Europe, of sorts.

[Adm.Lee]

That seems a stretch, as I can't recall any indicators of CivGov trying to do much of anything outside its enclaves Stateside. Still, it's a possibility.
IMO, those "not-insurmountable" difficulties might have seemed insurmountable to those in command.

I think a combination of CIA/CivGov promises to both XI Corps' leaders and the Polish Free Congress together might have swung things their way. If, as I have said, Generals Sweitzer and Wojcik felt that they (and their new PFC allies) were being abandoned, then a CivGov appeal (from a CIA person with the PFC) could work.

[Targan]

That seems a stretch, as I can't recall any indicators of CivGov trying to do much of anything outside its enclaves Stateside.

Not at all, what about Yugoslavia That is pretty much CivGov's show as far as NATO is concerned.

I always assumed that CivGov were actively involved in intelligence gathering in Poland. In my campaign at least one of the pro-NATO Polish forces had CivGov sympathies.

[Legbreaker]

The US forces located in the Balkans are all there due to Civgov's meddling in military matters. There's also a CIA operative attached to the Soviet 10th TD outside Warsaw (he meets with a violent fate sometime in winter 00-01).

The Oder River isn't a minor obstacle. Deep enough to accomodate battleships in WWII (one was grounded and used as a battery against the Soviets in the last days of the war), and wider than most easily portable bridging equipment can cope with, it would take a major operation to cross.

We can assume all prewar bridges and ferries have been destroyed in the preceeding 4 years of warfare and pontoon bridges, etc sabotaged and so on many times since. Anything capable of carrying more than a dozen people at a time is likely to be destroyed or otherwise unavailable (hidden away, sailed off to Norway, etc).

The Polish coastline from the mouth of the Oder all the way around to Gdynia is unsuitable for major amphibious operations with shallow treacherous waters. All the minor habours along this stretch allow vessels of no more than 4.7 metres draft (most modern warships, including those intended for amphibious ops require more than this).

Landing craft after 4 years of war are likely to be very rare and hard to come by. Fuel to power the few that are available is likely to have been expended landing the 2nd Marines east of Gdansk (and probably suffered losses from enemy resistance there).

Essentially all that's left able to access the XI Corps area are a few fishing boats and yachts, none able to carry more than a few tonnes at a time, IF fuel could be found. It's also probable the only port the XI has access to has been damaged by either or both sides previously and the approaches mined to prevent it's use by coastal patrol boats, torpedo boats, etc.

I've also previously mentioned somewhere than a withdrawal by the available transportation resources would require a long, gradual depletion of combat strength. Eventually the nearby enemy units would pick up on the withdrawal and also be strong enough to destroy the remaining elements of XI Corp. Chances are they'd also capture a fairlly large supply of equipment and stores in the process.

Basically the XI Corp has little hope of withdrawing without inviting a catastrophy. The best they can expect is for limited resupply by sea to the order of a few tonnes per day (at best). The good news is they should be able to evacuate badly wounded and excess specialist personnel while possibly receiving some reinforcements.

The PFC to me is almost an irrelevance. Lacking in effective combat power, chances are they'll be wiped out by marauders in the near future (if the Soviets don't do it first). At best they're a puppet government or ineffective propaganda tool of the west.

[Abbott Shaull]

That seems a stretch, as I can't recall any indicators of CivGov trying to do much of anything outside its enclaves Stateside. Still, it's a possibility.
IMO, those "not-insurmountable" difficulties might have seemed insurmountable to those in command.

I think a combination of CIA/CivGov promises to both XI Corps' leaders and the Polish Free Congress together might have swung things their way. If, as I have said, Generals Sweitzer and Wojcik felt that they (and their new PFC allies) were being abandoned, then a CivGov appeal (from a CIA person with the PFC) could work.

The CIA still had large presence in Poland. Well large for the it being Twilight 2000. They had operative who had Commander of the Soviet 10th Guards Tank Division to decide to head to the former Yugoslavia.

I don't see Operation Omega as the DIA/MilGov abandonment of the Polish Free Congress. I am sure NATO is still committed to the PFC as whole, okay maybe not all agree, Germans may want to reclaim territory, but in basis of Polish Government on NATO side they agree. For the PFC it will be just another set back in a long series of setbacks that date to 1939. I assumed that after the US troops out of NATO, they assumed the UK would continue to work with the PFC.

Also it could be also that the Command Staff of the US XI HQ aren't ignorant of Operation Omega. Maybe they had made choice to stay to help the PFC, but didn't want let other outside of HQ to know about their decision, due to losing troops who may want to go home.

Yes, I know how the canon is written, but people do adjust stuff they don't agree with. Or maybe you can write that XI Corps does what most troops in Central Command and the US Fourth Army. They simply decide to stay put. Just maybe one of the many reason they haven't moved is due to the fact they are there for the express reason to help the PFC get a larger foothold and to expand control of other parts of Poland.

Just some thoughts.

[Raellus]

The Oder River isn't a minor obstacle. Deep enough to accomodate battleships in WWII (one was grounded and used as a battery against the Soviets in the last days of the war), and wider than most easily portable bridging equipment can cope with, it would take a major operation to cross.

I agree. I can see the loss of the Oder river bridges as a legitimate reason to stay put. On the other hand, I do think that a determined and resourceful commander could figure out a way to get most (if not all) of his men across. An entire Corps would likely have enough engineering units (and probably river crossing equipment) to be able to repair or rig up some kind of light bridge or ferry system. A good commander knows how to withdraw under pressure. Destroying heavy equipment in place is SOP when it must be abandoned and since OMEGA pretty much counts on leaving heavy equipment behind anyways.... The stakes are high. If they don't get out of Europe via OMEGA, they're likely going to be stuck there for at least a year or two, likely longer.

I think that there's got to be something more holding them back than the Oder.

The PFC to me is almost an irrelevance. Lacking in effective combat power, chances are they'll be wiped out by marauders in the near future (if the Soviets don't do it first). At best they're a puppet government or ineffective propaganda tool of the west.

I'll be able to show you on my map, when it's finished, but the PFC has several Polish army units under its control, including a fairly powerful (for the year 2000) MRD or TD, plus a few hundred others. 4000 armed men a few AFVs would be able to handle most marauder groups. The PFC is presumably pro-western and would therefore be well disposed to cooperating with the 6000 NATO troops of nearby XI Corps. It seems that both entities would stand to gain much more by working together than by not.

[Abbott Shaull]

I'll be able to show you on my map, when it's finished, but the PFC has several Polish army units under its control, including a fairly powerful (for the year 2000) MRD or TD, plus a few hundred others. 4000 armed men a few AFVs would be able to handle most marauder groups. The PFC is presumably pro-western and would therefore be well disposed to cooperating with the 6000 NATO troops of nearby XI Corps. It seems that both entities would stand to gain much more by working together than by not.

Yes by the time offensive had ended the PFC military force had grown by the end of the year instead of shrink. Of course parts of one of the two Legion had gone rogue and doing their own thing. By this time there were maybe only a Division or two who were loyal to the Soviet puppet government based in Lublin. Of rest of the units some had switched to the PFC, while the majority had join/reinforce local militias where they finally found themselves after chasing after and fighting off various elements of the Third German Army in general.

[Abbott Shaull]

I agree. I can see the loss of the Oder river bridges as a legitimate reason to stay put. On the other hand, I do think that a determined and resourceful commander could figure out a way to get most (if not all) of his men across. An entire Corps would likely have enough engineering units (and probably river crossing equipment) to be able to repair or rig up some kind of light bridge or ferry system. A good commander knows how to withdraw under pressure. Destroying heavy equipment in place is SOP when it must be abandoned and since OMEGA pretty much counts on leaving heavy equipment behind anyways.... The stakes are high. If they don't get out of Europe via OMEGA, they're likely going to be stuck there for at least a year or two, likely longer.

I think that there's got to be something more holding them back than the Oder.

Yes but putting one finger on it seems to be as much troubling as to what were the intention of the offensive of the Third German Army, and what if the Soviets had desires for an organized offensive where would they hit

I know someone from the old board had done some work what the XI Corps would be doing in this region. I know there are some natural resources too that would be valuable.

[Legbreaker]

As far as I can see, the PFC has little to nothing to do with the post WWII Polish government in exile which I think was located in London. It was however set up by Nato in Poznan during the good times in 1997 (before the nukes and Pact counteroffensive). On my brief bedtime read last night I couldn't see any reference to it moving after this time.

Therefore, (and almost unbelievably) it's apparently well behind enemy lines in 2000. However, Poznan was nuked - chances are that this occured because the PFC was located there, effectively wiping the newly created political entity off the face of the planet along with the majority of governements around the globe.

[Abbott Shaull]

Looking at the Map it seems some German Third Army/German III Corps units were on either side of the US XI Corps at some points. Looks as if the III Corps was passing through the region being held by the main body of the XI Corps. Could be these units were their to help consolidate the XI Corps before they were withdrawn. Hence the reason why there are German units in the mix of the 2nd Marine Division.

[Legbreaker]

It is possible that at least some elements of the Germans entered northern Poland as planned in support of XI Corp. It is unlikely they moved past, or even into to any great extent the area of operations of the XI Corps.

Once the Pact counter offensive got underway, the German III Corps were able to withdraw back to the west of the Oder. Some small elements may have been cut off along with XI Corp, most probably those who'd been tasked with resupply of the marines. This would explain why only the marines are shown to have picked up the German Leopard III.

It is almost certain that the 2nd MARDIV were the most easterly unit in the Nato offensive except for the US 5th and 8th IDs. They were therefore fairly lucky in my mind to have been able to withdraw and consolidate with the rest of the Corps.

[GDWFan]

I find that even if Legbreaker is totally wrong here which he may be, his point is solid this is not real life nor is it 1990-1995 troop levels.
Id say you would need 1986-88 OOB's and they would need to be slightly updated.

The DC Fellow is being very rude. If someone doesnt like your ideas you cant tell them not to post. Thats crazy and stop bragging your experience nobody here has any experience running a country directing a military or surviving nuclear war so everyone get off your high horses

[kato13]

I find that even if Legbreaker is totally wrong here which he may be, his point is solid this is not real life nor is it 1990-1995 troop levels.
Id say you would need 1986-88 OOB's and they would need to be slightly updated.

The DC Fellow is being very rude. If someone doesnt like your ideas you cant tell them not to post. Thats crazy and stop bragging your experience nobody here has any experience running a country directing a military or surviving nuclear war so everyone get off your high horses

It goes much deeper than this.

I left my own forum for several months mostly because of how I felt Leg was acting. I will admit crushing issues in real life were also to blame, but in my own case Leg turned this forum from a place I enjoyed into a place I loathed for a time.

[Abbott Shaull]

I find that even if Legbreaker is totally wrong here which he may be, his point is solid this is not real life nor is it 1990-1995 troop levels.
Id say you would need 1986-88 OOB's and they would need to be slightly updated.

The DC Fellow is being very rude. If someone doesnt like your ideas you cant tell them not to post. Thats crazy and stop bragging your experience nobody here has any experience running a country directing a military or surviving nuclear war so everyone get off your high horses

I will say there is some bad blood here. Several people have had their feathers ruffled over some threads. I hate seeing things break down to pissing contest. When I come here, I like to see what people thing about one thing or another. In the end if you can present argument for your bottom line. The train of thought that you used for it, then I can walk away from with more knowledge than I had before.

You hit the nail on the head. T2K asks you to think outside of the box so to speak. Someone without any real life knowledge after reading the player rule book should be to play the game on a reasonable level playing field with someone who has been in the military/government/corporate manager, with a GM who can balance the two experience levels of their players.

There have been several incidents in Real Life that have happen, that shows how fast such things as Chain of Command can fall apart so fast or in some cases how some fail to kept others up their chain in fully inform of their operations for the sake of Operational Security. I can think of half dozen incidents that one could use almost T2K setting.

As an example during Operation Iraqi Freedom, during the drive into Iraq, when that Maintenance Company convoy made the wrong turn, well as has been pointed out the 2nd Marine Division has Germany tank in their organization. Well, what if, during movement element of a German unit got mis-oriented and took the wrong turn. The element leadership felt it was safer to stay with the XI US Corps than to travel back to link up with the III German Corps. There are several valid arguments why this thing or that thing happen.

I know none of us worked for GDW so we can't answer how they saw things, but as person who use to play as player and GM, I like to see how other feel things went. Also remember there are several lurkers who don't post often if at all. The bottom line is most of us here to see what others are doing or thinking about doing. Or seeing the new what ifs and whys, to expand out own personal knowledge of what would of happen, based on your point of view.

Okay getting off my damn soap box....

[Legbreaker]

My theory of a general Pact counter offensive which pinned down the Germans and the rest of XI Corp just got a boost. In the 1st ed Adventure Handout: Escape from Kalisz, it states on the 11th of July:

German Third Army reported by radio that it was under attack by strong cavalry and mechanised forces from the Pila area, and had identified elements of the 1st Polish Tank Army. It also reported the Torun area had been overrun by elements of the Soviet 22nd Cavalry Army from Byelorussia.

I'd go further based on the "strong cavalry and mechanised forces" statement that the Pact unit strengths in the books are actually post offensive once the dust has settled.
My guess is, based on the starting position of the 5th ID on the 19th of June, that there needs to be a significant rethink on where the various units were at the beginning. Right now I'm thinking that XI Corp may well have started along a line stretching from just west of Gdynia down to Chojnice with the German III Corp located between Chojnice and Stargard region.
My thoughts are that Nato was actually pushed back to roughly the positions marked on the map in the 2.x yellow book...