German III Corps?

[Raellus]

I agree that on the face of it- especially considering the principals of conventional land warfare established over the last 70 years- that the V Corps offensive described in canon doesn't make perfect sense.

On the other hand, one has to consider that by the summer of 2000, warfare has changed somewhat. Gone are the days of continuous fronts, operational defense in depth, and so on. Heck, by 2000, units have to grow their own food! Under the circumstances prevailing at that [fictional] time, I believe the Summer Offensive of T2K canon is plausible.

I agree that the ORBAT could do with some modifications, but I am also of the opinion that the alternative history established in canon should not be altered too much. If things aren't addressed in canon, then by all means they can and should be fleshed out. But, if they are specifically mentioned in canon, ways should be found to reconcile discrepencies with RL before wholesale changes are made.

This is, of course, just my opinion.

Perhaps T2Kers should take a page from the classic Sci-Fi RPG Traveller which encourages players to deviate from canon when it suits their gaming needs. They even have acronyms for personalized game settings- MTU (my Traveller Universe), YTU (Your Traveller Universe), etc.

[Targan]

I agree with everything Raellus said in the previous post.

[pmulcahy11b]

Once again, REAL LIFE FACT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!

Well, somebody's thinking! Realism's great -- to a point, and T2K demands more than most games, but it can be taken too far. Rules lawyers drive me insane. I remember playing D&D with rules lawyers, and you finally just burst out, "You're fighting an Ogre Magi and you want absolute realism!"

[Mohoender]

Well, somebody's thinking! Realism's great -- to a point, and T2K demands more than most games, but it can be taken too far. Rules lawyers drive me insane. I remember playing D&D with rules lawyers, and you finally just burst out, "You're fighting an Ogre Magi and you want absolute realism!"

So true, so true

[Marc]

Bona dia!


I like the argumentation of Legbreaker about the NATO offensive. In fact, I've translated it to Catalan to use it in my current campaign. Sadly I have not all the material published about T2K but Legbreaker's description has given to me a good overall vision of the canon operation. I will only add one point of my own harvest but without going too far away from the canon. I 've just started a new campaign with two group of players and with the characters being members of the 5th Infantry Division, but chronologically beginning with the initial stages of the NATO offensive. I've chosen to run a mini-campaign that will end with the Battle of Kalisz, as a way to introduce my players to the Twilight world in a more "guided way", still being members of an operational military structure. And, with great pleasure for me, they are newbies in the Twilight world and totally unaware of the fate that waits for the 5th ID in Kalisz.


In my initial setup, the position of the Canadian, American and British units in Germany is somewhat embarrassing. They have not adopted the cantonment system yet, knowing that it probably implies the future inability to develop any future offensive action. But they lack the resources to keep their units fully operational without exerting some kind of serious control about an extensive area, like the German units in their cantonments. So they are partially supplied of food and fuel provided by the Germans. This have originated a growing discontent among the overstretched civilians living in the German cantonments. Of course civilian population still feel a certain degree of gratitude toward their allied units. But they think that a lot of time has passed without any important activity in the European theater. Americans , British and Canadians have an important problem in the growing numbers of desertions. A lot of soldiers think that in he current situation their parent units could not provide the necessary means of support and that their lives could be better if they look for their own interest in small groups beyond the military structure. Every day, more soldiers choose to desert. The idea of a possible evacuation to their respective countries acts still as powerful cohesion factor, but morale is low. Finally, the decision about a new offensive is made.The objective is to obtain the lands for the future cantonments for the US, Brits and Canadians. The Germans, feeling in debt, will help, though they are reluctant to leave their cantonment areas partially unprotected and some warning voices point that a new major action in Poland could reactivate the war in Europe. The XI Corps, the bulk of the non-German forces in the German - Poland area, would lead the way. The final effort that could provide to NATO units with their own feuds, avoiding their disintegration as a combatative force.

[Marc]

The 5th was sacrificed as a smokescreen to cover the Reset mission in Lodz.

I've found this quote in the "Free city of Krakow" module by chance, while preparing my campaign:

"... The operation was code-named Reset, and Strike Zulu was hurriedly organized to coincide with the big offensive. In some circles, the offensive was considered to be a diversion for Operation Reset. ..."

It looks like, as good scriptwriters, the people of GDW were trying to leave some loose ends to tie up.

[Targan]

OT question from someone who has never visited Spain - how different is Catalan to Spanish

[Legbreaker]

"... The operation was code-named Reset, and Strike Zulu was hurriedly organized to coincide with the big offensive. In some circles, the offensive was considered to be a diversion for Operation Reset. ..."

...and I think that completely destroys anyones arguement for the US 5th ID being sent to Lodz for Reset.
The only plausible explaination the 5th was so far south is if they were just one small part of a much bigger picture. One little SF mission, important as it may be, is far from sufficient to warrant sacrificing an entire division (especially one of the strongest in Nato prior to the offensive).
Simply put, the 5th were destroyed due to a long line of bad intel, decisions and (I hate to say it) luck.

[kato13]

The writers exaggerated RESETs importance to make the players feel the mission was more important. The modules expose the players to quite a few "only one left" or "world altering" situations. The last train, the last Attack sub, the last Boomer, cold fusion information, General Cummings granddaughter, 486 tons of gold, the only satellite containing world altering information. These are just the ones I remember offhand.

Trying to have a single group of soldiers, by chance, performing all of these missions is going to require a step back from reality. That is why it is so hard to reconcile some parts of canon.

edit forgot Reset Itselt, THe Black Madonna, The Pennslyvania cache, the blimps
will add more as I remember.

[Marc]

OT question from someone who has never visited Spain - how different is Catalan to Spanish

I suppose that you're talking about the language, Targan. If not, please correct me. Catalan is just another romanic language that evolves from the common Latin in parallel to the French, the Castilian (Spanish) or the Italian, among others. The distance between Spanish and Catalan could be equivalent to the distance that exists between Italian and Spanish, or between Portuguese and Spanish. Basically, and open-minded spanish, can easily understand a conversation in Catalan in one month. And of course, he or she can try to speak in Catalan with the same ease. Catalan coexists with the Spanish as official language in Catalonia. It's a common fact (and a dangerous fact for the survival of my language) that the catalan switch from one language to the other without realizing it, in function of the language used by the other speaker. So, a lot of immigrants from the rest of Spain, though understanding the Catalan,choose not to speak it.

Ah! Finally, we do not use the spanish +-, but we do use `

[Haven]

The writers exaggerated RESETs importance to make the players feel the mission was more important. The modules expose the players to quite a few "only one left" or "world altering" situations. The last train, the last Attack sub, the last Boomer, cold fusion information, General Cummings granddaughter, 486 tons of gold, the only satellite containing world altering information. These are just the ones I remember offhand.

Trying to have a single group of soldiers, by chance, performing all of these missions is going to require a step back from reality. That is why it is so hard to reconcile some parts of canon.

edit forgot Reset Itselt, THe Black Madonna, The Pennslyvania cache, the blimps
will add more as I remember.

Bingo! Which is why I've never been one to use the 'canon' scenarios to play and only to provide additional background info that everyone can agree on.

If you do choose to use the canon i think you should already be prepared to accept some 'wha' moments like why the 5th would be so far south (or find a reason for them to be - like this thread is discussing).

Pick your FICTION.

[Webstral]

Although the books state the aim of the offensive was to clear the Baltic coast of Pact forces, the presence of the US 5th in the Lodz area implies a more ambitious objective - that of swinging behind the Soviet lines and potentially cutting their line of supply (minimal as it is in 2000). The very threat alone of encirclment, even partial encirclement would force the Soviet and Polish unit to withdraw at least several hundred kilometres.

A very interesting supposition. I like it. Certainly, the occupation of Poland west of the Warta would have been a high priority for the Germans. I do believe that SACEUR would have wanted the Baltic coast cleared as far east as possible for access to fishing and shipping. Nevertheless, causing the Pact forces in western Poland to withdraw east and south would have provided NATO with a lot of advantages. As an added extra-special bonus, a southward thrust oriented behind the "front line" Pact forces in western Poland would have been a far less costly means of displacing the Pact formations than frontal attacks. The light infantry actions of 1999 would have revealed that both sides were building extensive defensive works that would be expensive to break by frontal assault. All very interesting...


Webstral

[Marc]

Spring offensive map

Bon dia!

We're still working in the material of our future site and we would like to add the following map about the 3rd German Army in northern Poland:

Ofensiva2.pdf



The map is based in Legbreaker's analysis about the operation and our purpose is to give only a visual help for the referees running our pre-Kalisz campaign, with only the "main lines" of the NATO plotted movements. The typical map we find in the history books without entering in many details.Take into account that it is a map about the plan and not about the development of the offensive itself. Before add it to our site I would like to know any opinion from you, guys. Do you think that anything important must be changed or added

Of course, the initial positions are fruit of our imagination, but we have followed the clue that we know that the British Army was facing the Soviets around Frankfurt and that the 5th ID starting point was in the Chojnice/Człuch3w area. So we have chosen the line between Frankfurt and Chojnice/Człuch3w to distribute the starting positions for the NATO units implied in the offensive, roughly along the main road between Gorz3w Wielkopolski and Gdansk.

Thanks in advance!

[Marc]

Mmmmm... I've just edited the map in he last post. All the units and lines seemed to be displaced to the east.

[Legbreaker]

From my research for the analysis, the north end of the start line is way too far east. With a startline where you've marked, it makes much of the first few weeks of the offensive a cakewalk for NATO, totally changing the ultimate outcome. I'll try to mark out the start positions as I assessed them in the next few days.

I also envisaged the offensive as more of a fish hook in shape, III Corp pushing eastward several hundred kilometres before swinging south to cut off Pact units, or at least threaten encirclment against the mountains to the south.

The 2nd Marines were also conducting an encirclement operation, but on a much smaller scale. It was their task to take the river delta, but also push inland to cut off the northern Polish troops and allow the 8th ID an easier time of it.

Obviously almost no unit actually reached their objectives for a variety of reason. However, the 8th was probably the most sucessfull of all the NATO divisions, overshooting their objective by an embarassing distance.