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  • This is welcoming home the troops?

    This is not a political rant, simply an article that I saw on the DailyMail UK website that I thought merited a mention...

    It concerns a British infantry battalion that had returned from its tour of duty in Afghanistan, these soldiers had done a magnificent job and had suffered the loss of sixteen brave comrades. Upon their return, they were awarded the freedom of their city and marched in a parade, celebrating its final tour of duty. After the parade,c,,|.several of the squaddies decided to stop at a local pub, only to be told that the pub would not serve military personnel. Needless to say, this was not a very popular decision, especially with a battalion of soldiers, their families, was well as the citizens of the Borough of Havering.

    The owners of the pub later made a statement apologizing for the incident and advising that the team members involved have been ,c,,oeretrained,c,, and that ,c,,oeThe Bull,c,, proudly supports England,c,"s military.

    One is reminded of something written by a chap named Kipling,c,,|.

    I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
    The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
    The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
    I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
    O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
    But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
    The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
    O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

    I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
    They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
    They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
    But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
    For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
    But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
    The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
    O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

    Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
    Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
    An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
    Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
    Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
    But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
    The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
    O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

    We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
    But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
    An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
    Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
    While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
    But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
    There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
    O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

    You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
    We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
    Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
    The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
    For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
    But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
    An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
    An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!

    With the deepest respects to our Cousins across the Sea!
    The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.

  • #2
    Originally posted by dragoon500ly View Post

    I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
    The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
    The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
    I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
    O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
    But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
    The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
    O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

    I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
    They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
    They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
    But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
    For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
    But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
    The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
    O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

    Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
    Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
    An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
    Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
    Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
    But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
    The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
    O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

    We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
    But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
    An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
    Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
    While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
    But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
    There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
    O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

    You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
    We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
    Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
    The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
    For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
    But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
    An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
    An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!
    Hopefully this was just a misunderstanding, and nothing more. But if it wasn't...

    Couldn't have said it better, Mr. Kipling.
    "The use of force is always an answer to problems. Whether or not it's a satisfactory answer depends on a number of things, not least the personality of the person making the determination. Force isn't an attractive answer, though. I would not be true to myself or to the people I served with in 1970 if I did not make that realization clear."
    — David Drake

    Comment


    • #3
      How long until the spitting starts?
      THIS IS MY SIG, HERE IT IS.

      Comment


      • #4
        You know, there has always been a lot of debate about the spitting on returning veterans during the Vietnam War. You hear the story, and there are members of the former Peace Movement who state that they did this....

        But taking to numerous buddies at the VFW....more than one has stated, that "if any of the peaceniks @&(*$@%$@! SOBs had spit on me, they would have woke up on the floor!"

        Needless to say, the next time I have to travel to England, I'll be making a point to stop by this place and tell them that I will not be using their fine establishment!

        If veterans dont support each other, rest assured, the damned civilians won't!
        The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.

        Comment


        • #5
          One of the dirty little secrets of the Vietnam war is that it was largely a volunteer military that went. The mental image promulgated by the left of poor blacks being rounded up out of urban neighborhoods and used as cannon fodder doesn't track. Most of the vets I know did multiple (volunteer) hitches.

          Where this ties in to what you'd said is that most of the vets I do know who did go and then returned for multiple hitches did it to keep the faith with their fellow soldiers - because the perception was nobody at home cared.

          (note: I've only known 3-4 Vietnam vets, so I recognize the second paragraph is probably statistically insignificant, and I am not trying to speak from a position of authority)
          THIS IS MY SIG, HERE IT IS.

          Comment


          • #6
            With regard to Australian Vietnam experience, although we had conscription at the time, only those conscripts who volunteered (after being conscripted) for overseas duty went - all others served within Australian borders, most (if not all) within the reserves.
            Regular, career soldiers on the other hand didn't get a choice (and rightly so - they chose to be soldiers in the first place).
            If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

            Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

            Mors ante pudorem

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by dragoon500ly View Post
              The owners of the pub later made a statement apologizing for the incident and advising that the team members involved have been ,c,,oeretrained,c,, and that ,c,,oeThe Bull,c,, proudly supports England,c,"s military.
              That is a lesson in how to alienate customers......

              There is such a thing as bad PR.

              Originally posted by raketenjagdpanzer View Post
              One of the dirty little secrets of the Vietnam war is that it was largely a volunteer military that went. The mental image promulgated by the left of poor blacks being rounded up out of urban neighborhoods and used as cannon fodder doesn't track. Most of the vets I know did multiple (volunteer) hitches.
              I didn't know this. Very interesting!

              Comment


              • #8
                I don't like what happened to these men, they should have been welcomed home properly.

                However, MOD regulations specify that Uniforms should not be worn in pubs without prior authorisation. I have been in the pub with uniformed soldiers after Armistace Marches and they have always been specifically told it's OK to serve uniformed soldiers. On Carnivals, where there isn't an authorised pub, the soldiers with us changed before having a drink.

                Pubs can be prosecuted for allowing troops in uniform to drink and whilst I disagree with it, it seems unfair to vilify civilians for disrespecting serving soldiers when they are following MOD rules:

                This is an extract from the RN regs (the emphasis is mine):
                e. Occasions on which Uniform is Not to be Worn.
                (1) On leave.
                (2) Visits to licensed premises (including when not consuming alcohol), except
                when specifically approved by the Chain of Command.

                (3) Representing a third party e.g. part-time employment outside working hours.
                (4) Functions where fancy dress is worn; the wearing of uniform of obsolete
                design which is clearly distinguishable from the pattern currently worn is,
                however, permitted.
                (5) Carnival processions and other occasions when the reputation or political
                impartiality of the Armed Forces might be brought into question e.g. political
                meetings.
                (6) Hitchhiking.
                (7) When collecting charitable donations from the general public for non-Service charities. It is prohibited to use public assets, including Service manpower, in support of commercial activities or fundraising for private charities, both of which are considered private activity conducted at individuals' own risk and expense.
                (8) Individuals wishing to wear uniform when collecting donations for official
                Service charities are to seek authorisation from the Chain of Command. It would be usual for permission to be given in such circumstances; however, if there is any doubt as to the Service status of the charity concerned, the Chain of Command

                Comment


                • #9
                  Figures there was more to that story.


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    It's happened several times: six Royal Welsch Fusillier pallbearers were turned away from a pub where they tried to get a coffee after burying a comrade who had been killed in Afghanistan. I think the whole thing is wrong with some sort of lee way given to Publicans and troops.

                    My opinion is that if you trust the troops enough to risk their lives to defend us, you trust them enough not to get pissed in uniform and bring the service into disrepute. The MOD is a grown up ministry however and I suppose they have their reasons.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mahatatain View Post
                      That is a lesson in how to alienate customers......

                      There is such a thing as bad PR.


                      I didn't know this. Very interesting!
                      Facts about the Vietnam Veteran. Who served in Vietnam. people in service in the Vietnam War


                      I'm not sure of where their numbers come from. But if they're accurate, then it paints a far different picture than many would have you believe about what was going on "over there".
                      THIS IS MY SIG, HERE IT IS.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by dragoon500ly View Post
                        This is not a political rant, simply an article that I saw on the DailyMail UK website that I thought merited a mention...
                        The Daily Mail isn't known for balanced and reasonable reporting. Quite the opposite, unfortunately. Back in February, they reported that "Falklands risks fresh spat with Argentina as nation seeks to get its own passports". There was no such plan - the editor of the Penguin News, the Falkland Islands newspaper, hadn't even heard of it.

                        Originally posted by dragoon500ly View Post
                        proudly supports England,c,"s military.
                        It's not "England's" military. It's Britain's, or Great Britain's, or the United Kingdom's military. England doesn't have a military. I have some Scottish friends who get very worked up about people referring to England when they mean the UK.
                        Russell Phillips

                        Twilight:2000 Resources

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Was with my grandfather and his brother in 1971 when a hippie and his buddy threw their drinks into the face of a returning vet who had just got back and called him a baby killer.

                          Lets just say what my grandfather and great uncle did to them could be termed one of the great beatings of the 1970's. (Grandfather and great uncle both being WWII combat vets, the great uncle being in the second wave on D-Day at Omaha)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by simonmark6 View Post
                            I don't like what happened to these men, they should have been welcomed home properly.

                            However, MOD regulations specify that Uniforms should not be worn in pubs without prior authorisation. I have been in the pub with uniformed soldiers after Armistace Marches and they have always been specifically told it's OK to serve uniformed soldiers. On Carnivals, where there isn't an authorised pub, the soldiers with us changed before having a drink.

                            Pubs can be prosecuted for allowing troops in uniform to drink and whilst I disagree with it, it seems unfair to vilify civilians for disrespecting serving soldiers when they are following MOD rules:
                            The article didn't mention if the troops were in Class Bs (walking out dress) or in BDUs, so there is some question as to the exact chain of events. The article simply mentioned that after the parade, some 15 soldiers stopped by the pub, the article hints that this was a regular stopping place for the soldiers. So perhaps the pub crew was not entirely to blame?

                            But there have already been several instances in the US of returning GIs getting the same treatment...A MacDonald's refusing to serve GIs at the drive thru?!?!?! A Wal Mart door greeter, giving soldiers and their families a hard time, because the greeter did not support the invasion of Iraq/Afghanistan, just to name a couple in the last three years. In each case, the management always apoligized, offered gift cards and "retrained" their crews. And then there are those all-so brave individuals who think that the best way to stop a war is to egg the house of a GI, vandalize their car or plant protest signs in their yard (the one that inflamed me was "I hope your murdering son is killed by a IED").

                            To be certain, there are those individuals who go above and beyond, helping out a GI, one returning veteran on leave from Iraq had missed his connection due to bad weather, some nameless businessman, listened in one the converstation as the GI explained that he was on emergency leave and his wife was in the hospital delivering their first child, stepped forward and gave his ticket to the soldier, and thanked him for his service and then walked away.

                            Don't blame the soldiers, of all of the professions, the military is the one that really doesn't want to fight a war, after all, they are far too familier with the cost. If you want to blame somebody, blame the politicians who refuse to adopt a long term security policy, not to mention, their knee-jerk antics whenever a crisis blows up. And the sad fact of a demoracy, is that we, the voters, elect these idiots into office, which says alot about the intelligence of many of the voters.

                            I believe it was George Patton, viewing the aftermath of a bloody fight who stated "I wish that I could bottle up the stench of a battlefield, and store the canisters in Washington, and whenever a Senator or Congressman starts talking about going to war, I could give the dumb SOBs a whiff of the results."
                            The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              To be certain, there are those individuals who go above and beyond, helping out a GI, one returning veteran on leave from Iraq had missed his connection due to bad weather, some nameless businessman, listened in one the converstation as the GI explained that he was on emergency leave and his wife was in the hospital delivering their first child, stepped forward and gave his ticket to the soldier, and thanked him for his service and then walked away.
                              Post-9/11 I've had multiple occasions where myself and fellow soldiers grabbing lunch had a civilian offer to pay for our meals or do so anonymously, had a guy offer to swap his first class seat with my coach one while heading home on midtour leave, and stuff like that.

                              On the other hand, that sort of giving seems to usually occur more often the further away from garrison you get. In towns outside military bases, military personnel are less exotic and less celebrated. I don't have a hard time wrapping my head around a pub frequented by soldiers seeing guys walking in wearing uniforms and therefore violating a regulation they are familiar with and opting to decline service -- I'm not saying it's the right thing given this particular scenario, but the same sort of thing wouldn't be unusual for life in Fayetteville, NC, or Hinesville, GA, etc.

                              My opinion is that if you trust the troops enough to risk their lives to defend us, you trust them enough not to get pissed in uniform and bring the service into disrepute. The MOD is a grown up ministry however and I suppose they have their reasons.
                              Therein lies the rub. US bar culture isn't the same as UK pub culture, but over here give young soldiers access to alcohol and there will be a steady stream of incidents -- one of those 5% (or some similar number) spoiling things for the other 95% and such. Like Kipling noted in Tommy, soldiers aren't much different from everyone else, and the incidents won't be remarkably different from the range of incidents you get from that same age segment of the population as a whole, except that their actions have the potential to reflect poorly on or embarrass the military.

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