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OT - Is America looking over its shoulder

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  • OT - Is America looking over its shoulder

    I'm currently over in Kansas. Its a long story but my wife and son are American and my house is now over here and I'm back and forth between the States and Ireland every six or seven weeks. But without trying to start a flame war and from talking to people and looking at the news things don't bode well.

    China is a one party communist dictatorship whose citizens have very little rights. It tells its people how many children they can have and crushes and imprisons all dissenters yet it's on the verge of becoming the most powerful country on Earth. Since the end of the Second World War, and economically since the early 20th Century, America has been the dominant political and economic force in the world. But for how much longer

    In 2010 China overtook America as the world's biggest manufacturer after 110 years.
    In 2010 China overtook America as the world's largest consumer of energy.
    By some statistics China is now the largest producer and consumer of electricity, and may possibly have a larger installed electricity capacity than America who has led the field since the 19th Century.
    In 2011 China produced more than half of the worlds steel and more cars and commercial vehicles than America and Japan combined.
    In 2012 China spent US$ 106.4 billion on defence, but the US DOD estimates the real unofficial figure to be closer to $200 billion. America is currently slashing its defence budget.
    On current trends China's economy will overtake America by 2016 on the basis of purchasing power parity.
    On current trends China's economy will overtake America sometime between 2020 and 2030 on the basis of gross domestic product.
    China is planning to send people to the moon by 2025, while America currently has no capacity to send people into Earth orbit and is charged $63 million per man to use Russian rockets.

    Other Chinese economic statistics are also staggering. It's now the leading producer of a whole range of raw materials and agricultural products, and produces three and a half times as much coal as America which has the world's largest reserves. It also has the largest number of cell/mobile phone users as well as internet and broadband users, and its major road and rail network is second only to America's. Before China was given most favoured trading nation status by America it was a very poor country. But massive American investment over the past 20 years along with investment from Japan and Europe has seen it grow into an economic powerhouse.

    Despite an unprecedented Chinese military and industrial espionage campaign against America and the developed world and counterfeit goods accounting for 8% of China's GDP, and record breaking trade imbalances with America fuelled by continued American corporate investment in export orientated industries and the dumping of products targeted to eliminate American competition, the US government has done little or nothing to stop any of it. China has also bought up approximately 20% of all foreign-owned US Treasury securities. However despite all of this America's 12 million manufacturing jobs are still as valuable as China's 100 million plus workers, and they still make products in high end manufacturing and technology that the Chinese just can't compete with. In innovation and education America also still retains its traditional advantages, as you just can't replicate free thinking and a free market economy in a country like China.

    China's economic growth is now slowing down. Most of the above figures about economic growth were complied when the Chinese economy was growing at 10% or more per annum. Since 2011 it has slowed to under 8% despite massive Chinese government stimulus since 2009 by spending one US$ trillion on infrastructure and property development to mask the decline and it may soon fall lower. China's economic future now faces a nightmare senario. If the government continues to raise incomes they become uncompetitive and the factories will close as the Americans, Europeans and Japanese move elsewhere. If they don't raise incomes and give people more rights the people will get restless which will destabilise the country and lead to the same problems. Due to the corruption and political uncertainties of the one-party state and the limited economic freedom in an economy dominated by large state owned enterprises, many skilled professionals are either leaving the country or preparing safety nets for themselves abroad. Also the demographic future belongs to America. By 2050 there will be at least 100 million more Americans and that excludes illegal immigrants. By 2050 China will be lucky to have even the same number of people as it has in 2012 due to the one child policy and the now naturally low birth rate and dreadful living conditions. China is cursed by its very own government, a one part communist dictatorship run by elites but America still needs to wake up and soon!
    Last edited by RN7; 11-29-2012, 02:51 AM.

  • #2
    China's rise scares the hell out of me. Some aspects of American society, culture and politics do disturb me but Australia and America have far more in common than not and I'm far, far more comfortable with America being the dominant world power than China. I guess the majority of my fellow Aussies feel the same because we've allied ourselves lock, stock and barrel with the USA.

    In the back of my mind I can't help but wonder if my grandchildren will have no choice but to speak Mandarin. America has the mighty Pacific Ocean between itself and China. Australia is basically geographically part of Asia. We should be the ones allowed to keep military-grade firearms at home.
    sigpic "It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli

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    • #3
      RN7, you forgot to mention the trillions of dollars owed to China by the U.S. As an American, that is what scares me the most.
      Just because I'm on the side of angels doesn't mean I am one.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Targan View Post
        We should be the ones allowed to keep military-grade firearms at home.
        Who says some of us don't....

        The world is changing, of that there's no doubt. We'll never go back to the economic and political situation of even a decade ago - too much has changed, especially financially. All we can do is hold on tight and hope the ride doesn't kill us all.
        If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

        Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

        Mors ante pudorem

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Legbreaker View Post
          Who says some of us don't....
          Lucky you. For all intents and purposes it's impossible for me to do legally here.
          sigpic "It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli

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          • #6
            My country is basically F'd, and the previous administration did nothing to stop it and the current one is doing everything to accelerate it.

            I hear occasionally "Well this is just what we thought about the Japanese in the 70s and 80s and look where they are now." Well, firstly, Japan wasn't the largest foreign debt-holder against the US in the 1970s and '80s (I take some small comfort that the US is still the largest holder of its own debt, emphasis on some and small). Secondly Japan's political aims were at least tacitly aligned with our own even if we had to beat them into it. Finally, Japan wasn't ever in any political, social or economic position to demand we do anything. The same can't be said of China.

            Moreover, if China does go down the way Japan did, they'll take the world with them. They'll make the 2008 meltdown look like a balancing error in your checkbook.

            I don't say any of this with any passionate redneck fury to the tune of "...an' naow's th' tahm to RAAAAAHS UP!" - primarily because there's nothing we can do about it.

            1776-2008: it was a good ride.
            THIS IS MY SIG, HERE IT IS.

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            • #7
              I fail to see the the Twlight 2000 tie in here or is this another OT Thread not marked.....................AGIAN
              I will not hide. I will not be deterred nor will I be intimidated from my performing my duty, I am a Canadian Soldier.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Targan View Post
                Lucky you. For all intents and purposes it's impossible for me to do legally here.
                Who said it was legal here
                If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

                Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

                Mors ante pudorem

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Targan View Post
                  We should be the ones allowed to keep military-grade firearms at home.
                  every free citizen should. its part of being a country based on civil rights. even Machiavelli recognized this.
                  the best course of action when all is against you is to slow down and think critically about the situation. this way you are not blindly rushing into an ambush and your mind is doing something useful rather than getting you killed.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rcaf_777 View Post
                    I fail to see the the Twlight 2000 tie in here or is this another OT Thread not marked.....................AGIAN
                    Fixed.
                    sigpic "It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli

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                    • #11
                      Guys, I don't think this thread needs to be shut down (I responded to it first after all) but let me say pre-emptively that we need to keep it civil and as apolitical as possible. Any objections to the thread should be put to the moderators via PMs please.
                      sigpic "It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli

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                      • #12
                        China is the worlds most populous nation. All things being equal, China will have the worlds largest GNP. Free market capitalism (such that it is) accelerates the internationalization of prosperity through a fairly straightforward osmotic process, even as wealth becomes relatively more concentrated in the hands of a few. Trade and the flow of capital as free as the US has allowed"even directed"is turning out to be a Faustian bargain.

                        Chinas challenges are real. They appear to have reached the point at which the strategies that got them here wont take them much further forward without very significant realignments within the economy. Im concerned that bottlenecks will encourage the Chinese leadership to do something rash. Its hard to say what that will be, but if that rash behavior involves guns or very large quantities of foreign exchange we could have a real problem on our hands.
                        “We’re not innovating. We’re selectively imitating.” June Bernstein, Acting President of the University of Arizona in Tucson, November 15, 1998.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by rcaf_777 View Post
                          I fail to see the the Twlight 2000 tie in here or is this another OT Thread not marked.....................AGIAN
                          Yes its OT. Nothing to do with Twilight 2000 but it is a fairly important topic which may be very important to us all in the near future. One of the reasons I brought it up is because you can have reasoned discusions on this site unlike some others without starting a flame war and all the other nastiness.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Webstral View Post
                            China is the world's most populous nation. All things being equal, China will have the world's largest GNP. Free market capitalism (such that it is) accelerates the internationalization of prosperity through a fairly straightforward osmotic process, even as wealth becomes relatively more concentrated in the hands of a few. Trade and the flow of capital as free as the US has allowed-even directed-is turning out to be a Faustian bargain.
                            But thats part of the problem with China Webstral, its not a free market capatalist economy. Its a communist dictatorship and one of the worst governments in history. The Chinese people have little or no say in how the country is run, and compared to any Western democracy and even many developing countries have little of no rights.

                            China also plays by a different set of rules to most of the rest of the world, and everything about China's economic expanison is manipulated in their favour. The Chinese communist part apparatus and elite business community run and own China lock stock and barrel. They decide everything and corruption is so ingrained they don't know how to operate any other way.


                            Originally posted by Webstral View Post
                            China's challenges are real. They appear to have reached the point at which the strategies that got them here won't take them much further forward without very significant realignments within the economy. I'm concerned that bottlenecks will encourage the Chinese leadership to do something rash. It's hard to say what that will be, but if that rash behavior involves guns or very large quantities of foreign exchange we could have a real problem on our hands.
                            If you listen to what officially comes out of China then there are no real problems. But even they know that the export driven economic expansion can't go on for ever so they are trying to create a consumer based economy so that the Chinese people will start buying what China's factories produce to keep the economic expansion on a high trajectory. However the problem is that the Chinese people (most of them) are not rich. Their average national GDP is just over $8,000 just behind Jamaica and most of North Africa. In comparison America's GDP is just under $50,000 a year, and if you excluded America's urban and mostly non-white poor it would be a lot higher. Also a lot of China's economic statistics just don't add up. Take its car market which is now supposed to be bigger than the US and they also manufactured over 18 million cars and commercial vehicles in 2011. Yet they consumed 8.9 billion barrels of petrolium in comparison to the 18.9 billion barrels of petrolium consumed by Americans yet China's population is four times larger. Where are all the cars and trucks now that they sell and make more than America

                            But your right about a Faustian Bargain. Now that the Chinese people have had a glimpse of prosperity they will want more rights and a say in how they are being governened, just like the workers during the industrial revoultions of Europe, America and Russia in the late 19th and eraly 20th centuries, and we all know where that led.
                            Last edited by RN7; 11-29-2012, 11:03 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by RN7 View Post
                              Also a lot of China's economic statistics just don't add up. Take its car market which is now supposed to be bigger than the US and they also manufactured over 18 million cars and commercial vehicles in 2011. Yet they consumed 8.9 billion barrels of petrolium in comparison to the 18.9 billion barrels of petrolium consumed by Americans yet China's population is four times larger. Where are all the cars and trucks now that they sell and make more than America
                              I agree that many of China's economic figures don't add up but the vehicles produced/fuel consumed analogy isn't a strong one to make the point. China exports a lot of the vehicles it now produces. Also there's the legacy issue. Wealthy western countries like America and Australia only write off and destroy a fraction of their total vehicles each year. In Australia there are something like 3 vehicles for every person (maybe more, this is going from memory), whereas most people in China don't currently have cars. Their domestic car market is only just starting to fill a largely empty consumer pool (Chinese urbanites obviously have a higher propertion of car ownership than rural areas though).
                              sigpic "It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli

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