Questions about Home Guard/Militia units..

[The Rifleman]

Interesting take on Vermont. Have you guys read Webstral's New England material

I didn't know it existed.

[Legbreaker]

Are you familiar with the US Army Vehicle guide

Intimately.

Does it matter how far away an army base is if it's a non-military, government agency tracking them down :s
Am I misunderstanding things here Are we talking about just one vehicle in a depot waiting for conversion to lawn ornament, or closer to the impression I'm getting from reading this thread, a collection of a dozen or so plus miscellaneous equipment abandoned/cast off/declared obsolete and surplus pre war If the latter, then these depots represent a significant resource which should not be overlooked.

We also know that the military/government is able and willing to requisition equipment and supplies during wartime - they've done it before and will do it again. Therefore, the "paper" ownership of these items is a completely moot point. Take for example the notes for B2: Cadillac Gage Stingray.

...in early 1997 the Stingrays were requisitioned. (The vehicle in this plate still retains markings on it's rear superstructure showing it was requisitioned in February 1997 by Field Materials Headquarters Company 12.)

So, are we saying bandits and the like were already making life difficult and operating without the authorities doing anything about it as early as 2 months after the US entering the war, before many units had even assembled and climbed aboard a plane

If Stingrays, a vehicle which the US military didn't even have on it's books beforehand were being requisitioned and sent to the front, why would the "surplus" M1s, M60's, M48's, etc, etc, etc be ignored It might well take a while to track them down, but records surely exist somewhere regarding disposal of these items How hard would it be pre-nuke to carry out a simple computer search and find where they are supposed to be, then send out a couple of men in cars to confirm it

Would these vehicles have necessarily been sent to the front I doubt it.
BUT, as training vehicles, both for crew members and technicians (who could pull apart one of these recovered vehicles without fear of breaking something that was actually NEEDED on the front lines) they would be invaluable (take for example the Sentinel tank in WWII which although combat worthy never saw combat, but was used for training).

Once these vehicles were found, civilian contractors could be engaged to transport them to these training areas - a logging contractor for example with a low loader may find themselves shifting an M60 instead of the usual bull dozer. Use of these contractors will not have a significant negative impact on the overall troop mobilisation - they're outside the usual logistical network already operating overtime to shift tens, hundreds of thousands of troops to the docks and airports.

So in conclusion, efforts were clearly made to round up anything useful to the war effort. In wartime, the Federal government comes first, superseding any claims State or Local organisations have (although I'm sure there'd have to be payments, or promises of payments made). Not every vehicle/equipment would be rounded up, but it's very unlikely there'd be any relatively modern MBTs floating about for the State Guard/militia to lay their hands on.

As a side note, in WWII, all shrapnel from German bombs dropped on England was considered to be government property and was to be handed in for recycling immediately (although many kids illegally kept what they found as souvenirs). Numerous drives were made to collect scrap metal and just about anything else which could aid the war effort. In WWIII, would an M60A2 elude a similar round up if mere scrap in WWII was valued so highly

[natehale1971]

the difference in the Scrapmetal drives of then and now... is the fact that there are vast fields of scrapmetal at salvage yards that would have been stirpped before they got around to looking for those armored vehicles, aircraft and the like setting out from of VFWs, American Legion Huts and Disabled American Veteran Chapter houses... or even those out front of various local armories across the country.

And by the time the scrapmetal drives were being made in the Twilight War timelines, the nuclear exchanges had already been made. And by then, the local authorities would have pulled those systems out and gotten them up and running to protect themselves... and really tough biker types whom become bandits would have gotten their hands on them during this period as well.

history has shown that there are alot of varibles in play, and it's hard to say where anything will fall when it's time to cash in those chips.

[Legbreaker]

Well, as usual, everyone is entitled to do whatever they want in their own game world.
For me though, I just don't believe it's possible these sorts of resources would be completely forgotten about and ignored in the almost twelve months of full scale warfare before continental US was nuked and conditions deteriorated past the point where it was possible to find and recover these things. The war starts going against NATO literally MONTHS before the US is nuked and there's a clear and desperate NEED for heavy equipment for the front lines.

Overlooking AFVs so new that their cousins are still in service is, in my mind at least, absolutely criminal!

[natehale1971]

Well, as usual, everyone is entitled to do whatever they want in their own game world.
For me though, I just don't believe it's possible these sorts of resources would be completely forgotten about and ignored in the almost twelve months of full scale warfare before continental US was nuked and conditions deteriorated past the point where it was possible to find and recover these things. The war starts going against NATO literally MONTHS before the US is nuked and there's a clear and desperate NEED for heavy equipment for the front lines.

Overlooking AFVs so new that their cousins are still in service is, in my mind at least, absolutely criminal!

Not arguing with you my friend... but we're talking about the government. and anyone can tell you how some of their actions can be easily seen as criminal neglegence....

The AFVs in question that we're talking about are the ones that are "off-the-books" and not recored as being in the system... and thus considered to be decommissioned and very possibly scrapped.

Now AFVs that had been decommissioned within a year or two year period would be the ones that would be in the 'recall' to be requisitioned from their civilian owners (or even from those State Guard and local militia units that own and operate them).

Hell, they would requistion Armored Cars that transport valuables since as we're seeing... those vehicles are damn good at being resistant to roadside boombs and anti-vhiecle landmines.

[dragoon500ly]

You're right, they are supposed to be de-milled. However, a lot of those tanks spend YEARS sitting in motor pools waiting for state to get around to doing the work. Besides that, if if they are de-milled, the spares are still there to swap out, and at the state level they have everything they need to make parts. Power pacts probably would be the most difficult to replace, as whole ones aren't just laying around waiting to be replaced, but I don't think they removed the whole thing, just one or two parts. As a matter of fact, there is one partular one that needed to be moved, they just unlocked it and drove the 50 year old tank to a new home lol.

Its Federal law that display armored vehicles be de-milled, and the BATFE does check on such displays. At the very least, the fire-control must be removed, the gun tube rendered inoperative and the vehicle be immobile (usually be removing the power pack).

There was an earlier comment about a M-60A3 being used in a road-rage incident in, I believe, 1995. This vehicle was stolen from a National Guard Armory, dirt simple when you realize that all you need to operate a tank, is something to break or cut the hatch-lock off. Vehicles are normally parked with full fuel cells and have no keys for the ole ignition.

[The Rifleman]

Lots of posts on here with people making reasonable comments. However, I find it interesting that some people are debating their theories here when I am bringing first hand knowledge of things that I could easily get in my car and go drive and see or make a phone call to confirm.

The following statements are facts from 21 years of service in the national guard:

-National Guard units report to their respective govenor, not the Federal Government unless called to active duty. There are some state units that cannot be federalized. This includes the state guard. These units control miltary items that are not owned or tracked by the federal government or army.

-National Guard units are in control of "excess" equipment. The active army and federal government do not track this as it is in the hands of a different entity. National Guard at the state level have their own full time soldiers, support soldiers and reasources that are not controlled by the federal governement or active army.

-Just because there are laws in place does not mean they are followed or checked. The BATF may be active in some places but it isn't in others. Also, there is a big difference between an AFV on the front lawn of a wallmart and one at a national guard base.

Honestly as has been pointed out, I don't care what other people do in their games. I do find it frustrating that people are here telling me I'm wrong about things that I know first hand to be true. I've railheaded tanks, used HETs to move tanks by truck, driven tanks on the highways right here in my own state my whole life. I know full well how they are moved between different bases, who's tracking what and who isn't. I also understand the politics of the national guard and the active army quite well. I'm all good with debating "what could have" happened, but I'm really not good with debating what really exists, its just a time waster.

[kato13]

One fact that I remember that might be relevant to the discussion, in 1986 or 1987 the US military felt that they had lost track of too many vehicles within their own structure. A full inventory was ordered that was supposed to take into account things like damaged but reparable vehicles, vehicles stripped down to their frames, etc. The scale of the problem was so great that the most optimistic end goal of the inventory was to get an accurate count +/- 50,000 vehicles.

That size of that number stunned me to the point that I remember it clearly until today. (I believe the source was a 86/87 US Air Force published magazine)

If things can be that bad internally with vehicles counts inside a structure fully controlled by the federal government, I can't imagine what would slip through their fingers when they try to go outside that which they directly control.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind also that you have all kinds of vehicles in private hands as well in the US - everything from Sherman tanks to Ferrets are in the hands of private collectors, many of which have live tubes and are fully functional.

Those vehicles definitely would be part of militia units, either official ones sanctioned by the States, or private ones in areas where the State governments had broken down.

As for display vehicles and other assorted items - I know for a fact that an old Sherman used in my area where I grew up as a VFW display had a live tube. The vets, many of whom served as tankers in WWII, kept her functional and on at least three occasions she was driven in parades as late as 1991 (Gulf War victory celebration). In a Twilight 2000 world she definitely would have been part of any local militia raised in that area.

As for the Army tracking them down - they will have more than enough to do going thru places like Anniston Army Depot, Fort Knox, etc.. looking for anything that can be repaired and put back into the fight to ever start grabbing display vehicles at VFW's or go rooting thru a National Guard bone yard in Idaho or North Dakota except possibly in hot zones like CA, AZ, or Alaska once they were invaded and they literally needed everything they could lay their hands on.

[Targan]

It's just common sense that the US military (and later the military forces of MilGov, CivGov, state government forces, local quasi-government forces) will first track down and attempt to return to functionality those military vehicles that they have accurate records for and can easily get their hands on. Obviously that means mostly vehicles they actually own and can return to functionality without too much trouble. Then they'll start casting further afield and thinking 'outside the box'. Post-TDM, things will be in complete chaos for a while and moving non-functional combat vehicles around (and finding parts for them, and refurbishing them) will become a low priority/impossible, for a while.

Eventually in '98/'99/2000 the various national/state/local/quasi-official military and para-military forces might start trying to requisition the older and more obscure decommissioned military vehicles, and that will most likely be because they start encountering them in the hands of non-official groups. That's when panic will set in, mainly at the local level.

State Guard company commander: "Oh my God, those bandits down in Smithsville have got themselves some kind of armoured vehicle, initial reports suggest it's a Sherman tank. We have to deal with them before things really get out of hand. We need to take that tank intact if we can, if not we have to destroy it".

Afterwards, the ramifications of that situation will start to filter up the chain of command and efforts will be made to determine if other, similar surprises are hiding on the fringes. That's when concerted efforts will be made to seize and bring in as many old, privately owned military vehicles as possible.

[Olefin]

"Eventually in '98/'99/2000 the various national/state/local/quasi-official military and para-military forces might start trying to requisition the older and more obscure decommissioned military vehicles, and that will most likely be because they start encountering them in the hands of non-official groups. That's when panic will set in, mainly at the local level.

State Guard company commander: "Oh my God, those bandits down in Smithsville have got themselves some kind of armoured vehicle, initial reports suggest it's a Sherman tank. We have to deal with them before things really get out of hand. We need to take that tank intact if we can, if not we have to destroy it"."

Completely agree with you there Targan!! Think of what happens in the Ozarks module when suddenly MilGov units are getting nailed because New America has air power and they dont as an example. You would have to figure that they would be scrounging suddenly for anti-aircraft weapons of any type or flyable aircraft or whatever, where a month before they couldnt care less.

If your patrol gets jumped by marauders with Ferrets or a Sherman tank suddenly fixing that old M-60 sitting in front of the local VFW becomes a heck of a lot more urgent.

Think back to Krakow - the maruders who nailed Team Zulu had a BMP-C - and that one vehicle made them a force to be feared. When all you have is rifles and shotguns and pistols even an enemy force using old armored bank cars would make you want to get that display or museum piece tank back into operation and quickly.

[Legbreaker]

In spite of these measures, expansion was slow. By December 31, 1941, 24 days after the Pearl Harbor attack, the Army consisted of 1,685,403 men ( including 275,889 in the Army Air Corps) in 29 infantry, 5 armored and 2 cavalry divisions. While an increase of 433% in two and a half years was a magnificent achievement, shortages of equipment and trained personnel were serious.

And that, from here: http://forum.juhlin.com/showpost.phpp=52342&postcount=2 is why I believe no stone will go unturned in the search for war material.
You just can't have a rapid build up of forces (as occurred both in early WWII and T2K) without shortages of equipment and a desperate need to acquire them from ANY source.

[HorseSoldier]

Overlooking AFVs so new that their cousins are still in service is, in my mind at least, absolutely criminal!

I'd tend to agree on this, with regard new enough equipment like M60 MBTs. On the other hand, I'm not sure how many of those would actually be on static displays in the Twilight timeline, when it was still a mainstay of ARNG armored units that had just begun transitioning to the M1 series, versus our timeline when post-1989 and Gulf War current generation equipment basically rained down on the reserves with the military draw down.

Anything pre-M113 or pre-M48 series tank would essentially be irrelevant and more trouble than they're worth, even as training vehicles due to the logistics piece and other issues I've discussed concerning my opinion about resurrecting things like WW2 vintage armor for Twilight War service in other threads.

Now, post nuke changes things, and state NG organizations are probably the most likely operators of wacky vintage armor -- as discussed above they might have access to parts (or additional vehicles to part out) and mechanics who, while not school house trained on the vintage equipment had been able to tinker with it. The collapse of the nationwide distribution network is going to be less of a show stopper at the state level (well, at least the smaller ones -- places like Texas and California are probably a mess for state-level lines of communications post TDM). How long they could actually keep anything resurrected from the bone yard running is an open question with the usual answer probably mostly being "not very long." Even without ammo for main guns and such, however, being able to park a tank shaped object in places of heavy civil disturbance during the winter 97-98 would help restore or maintain order.

By 2000, though, I'd guess that most vintage armor the states may have been able to put back in operation are back to essentially static display status like the non-functional tanks turned into turreted bunkers around Krakow. Even without main gun ammo it looks scary, and a turreted coax machinegun can lock down an entry control point even if it is subject to sporadic sniper fire and other harassment that might make guys manning gun towers iffy.

(Additional observation about NG and weird stuff still in inventory -- during the early 90s I served with a couple guys who were WW2 reenactors who noticed a pair of half tracks lurking in the back corner of the AL ARNG UTES cite at Ft McClellan/Pelham Range. They were definitely in the fixer-upper category, but those two guys spent some time climbing around on them and thought they could probably put together one working vehicle from what was present. Or at least "working" in the relatively low demand context of WW2 reenactment. They tried asking around with the UTES personnel on what the actual ownership status of the halftracks was, since there is a market in the reenactment community for that sort of thing, but I think their research never got further than the "hell if I know" answers they got from guys who worked there.)

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that until early 1998 or so they would be totally dedicated to getting damaged vehicles back into action or finishing refits or remans or getting new vehicles off the line

it wont be until the parts start to run out and the factories shut down that they will start looking a museums and VFW displays and the like

as for old tanks and AFV's - its actually a lot easier than you think to make parts for them with even small town machine shops - its one reason so many are in the hands of collectors

[headquarters]

militia armour

As for operational use, a tank might not be as cost efficient as a bunch of technicals. So even though a state guard unit might very well be equipped with the tanks listed by Rifleman ( fully plausible in my book) - its not sure they would actually see much use other than sort of deterrents around valuable areas. Running a tank patrol would be costly business in T2K.

Setting up and arming a militia unit is not that hard if you have an outside threat that people fear. Setting up a good one on the other hand is a different matter.

I remember reading an interview with a man from Liverpool who served in the trenches in WWI. He was in a depot for a total of 9 days, fired three shots and was of to France the 10th day. I dont know how many days he spent training there before he was in a trench.