Questions about Home Guard/Militia units..

[Olefin]

One tank is worth a lot of technicals in combat - for one just the fact that the crew is under armor and protected much better than a gun truck or technical is worth a lot in combat.

Plus you have the ability to use the weight of the tank for crushing attacks that a technical doesnt have, plus the ability to have a fully armored pillbox when you are low on fuel.

If you want to see the value of even a single tank in combat look at the landings on Tarawa - only a couple of the USMC Shermans in the first day got ashore and survived to fight with the Marines - but their effect in supporting the Marines was very important.

You can see their effect clearly in the Europe modules - one of the reasons Krakow is such a powerful force is the fact that they have operational tanks left in their arsenal.

Even a single operational platoon of tanks has a huge effect on the operational capability of any unit.

[natehale1971]

I have a feeling that the tanks and other AFVs would more than likely be held in reserve and not used for common patrols... that's what technicals would actually really excel at. providing support for patrols, and holding enemies in place until the tanks/AFVs can arrive to deal with things that the patrol can't handle on their own. During an actual combat, the Tanks and AFVs would be worth their weights in gold... hell, lead would be worth a hell of a lot more than gold in the Twilight 2000 setting.

[bobcat]

has anyone also thought about the CD stockpiles. theres warehouses throughout the united states filled with weapons from WW2 and korea. and im not just talking garands and M1911's here we're talking bazookas, M1919's, M2HB's, BAR's, Thompsons, jeeps, tanks, halftracks. all set aside for if the national militia ever had to be used. and not just guns either, there are similar stockpiles of fuel, supplies, ammo, replacement parts, tools, everything you need can be found if you know what warehouse its in.

[Legbreaker]

And you can be sure that stuff would be used at some point, probably the moment the Mexicans and Soviets took their first step into Texas and Alaska.
New America might even have purloined a few of the dumps over the previous couple of years - get a few of their own people into positions of authority...

[headquarters]

Cost /value tanks vs others

Sure, I realize this. I was merely trying to point out that a tank is fuel thirsty and that it might be reliant on parts that are not commonly available. It also needs a trailer crew.

A technical on the other hand is a lot of bang for buck and it is easier to keep operational.

As Olefin rightly points out it wouldnt be much of a match for a tank. Nor would say 5 of them given the right terrain for the tank. But You gotta factor in the resources it takes to keep a tank running.

Running a smal militia I think I might be better of having a dozen technicals rather Thanks one tank. There is aften all a need to be mobile, patrolling,raids to be made etc.

One tank is worth a lot of technicals in combat - for one just the fact that the crew is under armor and protected much better than a gun truck or technical is worth a lot in combat.

Plus you have the ability to use the weight of the tank for crushing attacks that a technical doesnt have, plus the ability to have a fully armored pillbox when you are low on fuel.

If you want to see the value of even a single tank in combat look at the landings on Tarawa - only a couple of the USMC Shermans in the first day got ashore and survived to fight with the Marines - but their effect in supporting the Marines was very important.

You can see their effect clearly in the Europe modules - one of the reasons Krakow is such a powerful force is the fact that they have operational tanks left in their arsenal.

Even a single operational platoon of tanks has a huge effect on the operational capability of any unit.

[James Langham]

A tank is worth a number of technicals IF USED CORRECTLY. Compare the losses between Chad and Libya in the Toyota Wars where techincals with ATGMs dominated. In my TW2000 background this fueled the US light infantry experiments with FAVs.

[Apache6]

conversion and maintenance of gun trucks

For home guard and militia units, I believe that the conversion and maintenance of gun trucks, armored and equipped with MGs, grenade launchers, rocket launchers or ATGMs is going to be far more effective than the repair and maintenance of AFVs, particullarly tracked vehicles. It's just easier to maintain wheeled vehicles, and they are FAR more common, and so are their parts.

Yes, select units might be able to repair and maintain and operate an old M-48 tank taken off display at the local VFW.

I think just about any community of any size could convert and maintain far more gun trucks. Selecting a common base vehicle for conversion would make sense and result in lots of parts being availalbe. For example a county public works fleet with a fleet of heavy trucks used for snow plowing/salting..., or a construction companies fleet of dump trucks would be a good place to start if the company has 20 dump trucks, six might be converted with the others being stripped for parts.

Is a M-48 more effective then one (or 10) gun trucks For what mission Patrolling the roads, no, the gun truck(s) is better. Supporting an assualt against a fixed enemy position The M-48 is better. Mobile offensive operations I think in general several gun trucks would likely be more effective and certainly 'cost effective' then a single tank. Convoy security Gun trucks are better. A tank undoubtedly has a prescense that a gun truck does not, and may very well be able to deter threats that the gun trucks can not.

[WallShadow]

Location, location, location!

One factor I haven't noticed being mentioned is WHERE the fighting is taking place--is it in the crossed and re-crossed continental battlefield of Europe, or is it in a somewhat-devastated but not by armies area, like most of the US or Canada.

The prevailing available firepower that a vehicle might encounter is one of the factors that will drive a locale to generate 10-20 guntrucks over one relatively invulnerable but resource-hungry back-from-the-boneyard M48. Something that has a reasonable chance of surviving a hit from a relatively easily-available anti-tank munition--say, a 40mm HEDP GL round-- would seem to be the lowest common denominator. Just how many LAWs, Recoilless rifles, Carl Gustav's, bazookas, or RPG-7s are floating about the area will be weighing heavily on the defender/refurbisher/road-warrior' mind.

And then you have the home-grown MRL system hatched from PVC pipe and homebrewed propellant & warhead filling, as described in Urban Guerrilla...if you're smart enough to make them, is your predatory neighbor also that smart Or smarter Shaped charges are not hard to make, kids!

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that there is a very functional use for an old Stuart, Sherman, M48 or M60 that was brought back from the boneyard or was a collector's tank (and there are lots of them here in the US by the way that are fully operational, some with live barrels) - and that is as a deterrent to attack.

Even if the tank never goes on patrol, never does convoy escort, heck never even leaves the town square, a lot of marauders would think twice about taking on a town that has an operational tank as part of its armaments. That was one reason that Krakow wasnt sacked in Poland - because they still had those tanks and other towns didnt.


Think about the fun during the initial escape from Kalisz everyone had - for those trying to get across the bridge at Sieradz those three tanks there, only one of which was fully operational, really made it a pain in the butt, especially as the rest of what was there was basically close to unarmed (half of them only had pistols if I remember right)

Take those three tanks out and its a cake walk to get across that bridge with any kind of armored vehicle - with them there you better be packing a Bradley or a M-1 or have Humvees with TOW launchers on them or you arent going to make it on a vehicle

same with Home Guard units - its one thing to take on gun trucks armed with a 50 caliber MG - its another to take on a functional Sherman tank that has shells for its cannon and a crew that knows how to use them

[natehale1971]

Does anyone have any good reference pics, maps/floor plans of a National Guard Armory facilities I'm going to see if i can get my roommates to take me to the old Armory and the new one this weekend so i can take some pictures to get a feel for them so i can get a good idea of how to capture them in what i've been working on.

[Legbreaker]

I think you might run into a few security issues if you try taking pictures. If you don't, somebody on site isn't doing their job properly!

[natehale1971]

I think you might run into a few security issues if you try taking pictures. If you don't, somebody on site isn't doing their job properly!

The old armory shouldn't really raise problems since it's the one i am wanting to get the most info on since it was originally built back in the early 1900s... thankfuly the wife of one of the senior NCOs in the local Guard unit use to work with me at the Wafflehouse before my accident, and i'm hoping that he'll be able to help me with my questions.

[bobcat]

another thing to consider is the effects on improvised tanks. such as the modified artillery tractors used in Chechnya. not the best armor in the world but better off road capability than gun trucks and can bring a bit more bang to the party.

[HorseSoldier]

I'd also have to ask where the ammo is coming from for any tank using a gun earlier than the 105mm. Even if local militias can get the engines running on WW2 vintage armor or M48s doesn't mean they'll have access to one single round of main gun ammo for those tanks. If there is any ammo buried at the back of some bunkers in insane war reserve or to support foreign military sales, that doesn't inherently imply that there is either will or ability for post-TDM senior American commanders to push those assets out to local militias, whatever their loyalty.

[Targan]

I'd also have to ask where the ammo is coming from for any tank using a gun earlier than the 105mm.

Absolutely. I and several other posters in this thread have been discussing the use of obsolete MBTs with the assumption that main gun ammo would either be negligible or non-existant.