Weapons in the uk - in a t2k scenario

[headquarters]

I thought of this topic and wanted to ask the board memebers what are their thoughts. If we already did discuss and I forgot - sorry. (I did search the threads though).

As I understand there are about zero firearms owned legally in Great Britain with the exception of a small amount of shotguns and hunting rifles registered by hunters. Police and military/TA armouries are few and not very large.

As I understand it sports/competition arms are kept under lock and key by the various clubs and are restricted to a few types of precision rifles etc.

What is the actual density of fireams in the UK

What would happen in the event of a T2K scenario in terms of the populace arming themselves

Would you have a melee based campaign setting - more or less

I only ask relevant to the game.. Please give me your opinions.

[simonmark6]

I'm happy to try and answer this, but I hope it doesn't collapse into an argument about UK gun laws. I know that wasn't the intent of the post so:

In 2007, England and Wales had 3,400,000 registered firearms. All of these would be shotguns and rifles, mostly in private ownership. Numbers for Scotland were 240,000 and Northern Ireland, 380,000. Average number of guns per 100 people would be about 6.

This was 2007, in a TW2K environment there would be more guns although semi-automatic guns with magazines would already be gone after the Michael Ryan massacre. The Lockerbie massacre happened in 1996 and led to legislation to ban handguns. The ban and collection of weapons didn't really start until 1997 however so it might not have been as successful in a TW2K world and, indeed, it may not have gone through in a world with escalating threats of violence.

In general, you can have five shotguns on a shotgun licence as long as they have a capacity of three rounds. Larger capacities go on your rifle licence. All rifles will generally be bolt action or low capacity semi-automatic and pump-action in no greater than .22 calibre although pistol calibre lever action guns are also present. Bolt action and lever action can be of most calibres and magazine capacity is not limited. Semi-auto rifles of larger calibres can be used but have to be converted to single shot so that the action must be manually cycled every shot (making them awkward bolt actions)

Gun clubs usually have small calibre target rifles of .177 and .22 calibre. Usually.

Another place you could get limited firearms would be a Cadet hut: many big guns were pulled in after the IRA started raiding them for weapons so most would be air rifles or .22 with the odd Lee Enfield or single shot SA 80.

Looking at a TW2K scenario, guns could be relatively commonplace: the population has reduced from 60 million to about ten so they could be very common, as much as 1 in 10 or less to really rare, it depends on how many were lost or damaged in the chaos.

I'd guess that lots of guns were cherished over human lives in the chaos and that there would be a lot more guns per 100 survivors than there are now. Most will be double barrelled shotguns and .22 rifles but there will be enough other guns to make things dangerous.

Ammunition is another issue: I doubt there'd be a lot of bullets left unless there was a local reloading industry. If I remember rightly, you can't keep more than a hundred rounds of any calibre.

Hope this helps.

[Rainbow Six]

OK, looking at this purely from a T2k point of view (I have absolutely no interest in getting into a debate / discussion about UK gun laws) it is a subject that I have tried to account for when working on my Alternative SGUK, particularly for the larger marauder groups....I have no idea of any sort of statistics as to gun ownership (Edit - thanks simonmark6 for detailing that), however it is unquestionable that private gun ownership is much more restricted / controlled in the UK than it is in some other countries, although the situation in T2K (V1 or V2) might slightly different than it is in real life...a bit of history...in my opinion (others may differ) the policy on private ownership of weapons was heavily influenced by two events – the August 1987 Hungerford shootings, which led to the 1988 Firearms Amendment Act, which banned the ownership of semi automatic and pump action weapons and the March 1996 Dunblane shootings, which led to the 1997 Firearms Amendment Act. It was this Act and its subsequent Amendment that effectively outlawed the private possession of handguns ( said I had no interest in getting into a discussion but as part of the context of the history, the Dunblane shootings took place in a school in Scotland and created a shockwave that went through the country. I still have vivid memories of that day (I lived about twenty miles away from Dunblane) - a person whose name I can still remember without looking it up (I wont repeat it here) went into a primary (elementary) school and shot dead sixteen children and a teacher (whose name I can also remember).

You'll see from the dates that the 1988 Act would have undoubtedly been in place in the T2K timeline but the 1997 Act is much more debatable – would the shootings have still taken place Maybe. The War would have started by 1997 so would the Government reaction have been the same Unknown. Even if it had been, I think the dates are such that there may have been more handguns present in private ownership than there were / are IRL.

In general though, even if you don't have the 1997 Act in place, options for arming the general populace are going to be much, much more limited than they are in other countries. Civilian weapons would be available in small numbers – I haven't been for some years but well after the turn of the Millenium I used to go clay pigeon shooting at a place that had several dozen (at least) double barrelled shotguns and ammunition to go with them...enough to arm a decent force...there is a gunshop close to where I live, another close to my parents house – my father buys lead shot from that one to use as nose weight for model aircraft...so I think there would be some civilian weapons...just not significant quantities (certainly not in single locations) and not military type (assault rifles, etc). There will also be weapons that are already in criminal hands as there is in real life.

There may also be a number of military and police issue firearms that might fall into the wrong hands for a number of reasons – troops turning marauder is probably the most obvious (and would probably be the most potent type of marauder group), but there could also be corrupt suppy types selling them, weapons being "lost" in the general chaos and confusion following the nuclear exchanges. In some circumstances it wouldn't take much to make a marauder group a significant local power...finding an abandoned truck that has twenty SA80's and several thousand rounds of ammo would probably be more than enough in some cases. You'd probably also see much more armed police as well, whilst there may have been an expansion of the Home Service Force which may have seen the issuance of more military weapons at a more local level (the HSF was essentially a form of Home Guard which was limited in size and eventually phased out totally at the end of the Cold War). Obviously both the police and the military may be overrun by the mobs in some places, losing their weapons in the process. In some areas you could possibly add small numbers of US weapons to the mix sourced from the USAF bases in England (although I think it's highly unlikely you are going to find groups armed with large numbers of M16's and M60's).

A trope I've used in my own Alternative Survivor's Guide to the UK has been French DGSE agents supplying weapons to marauders and separatist groups to try and keep the UK destabilised on the basis that the longer the UK remains in chaos the greater the chance France has to emerge from the War as the dominant power in Europe. After the nuclear exchanges I could see impromptu militia forces being raised...if they wanted to the Government could probably arm them with weapons taken from storage...L1A1's, maybe even Lee Enfields (the way Milgov issued M16EZ's to groups in the US). I've also used the idea of HMG unwittingly arming a marauder group after being duped into thinking they were a legitimate group.

I do think though that guns will be the exception for many groups. What you are likely to see is the rank and file armed with melee weapons, knives, sometimes taped to a broom handle, baseball bats, improvised weapons such as cricket bats, pool cues, and some firearms, probably carried by the leaders – maybe a couple of handguns, shotguns, and if they're lucky one or two military or police issue weapons...an L1A1, a Sterling SMG or an MP5 SMG (MP5's were, and in many cases still are, standard issue to most police firearms units). Expect ammunition to be in short supply. The larger, more organised groups, e.g. the one that did manage to find the truck with 20 SA80's in the back, will have the potential to be significant local players as I mentioned above, whilst larger groups, if they can arm themselves sufficiently, can become regional powers.

[Bullet Magnet]

Since the Dunblane thing you mentioned was in 1996, it's possible the asswipe that did it could have been called into service (I have no idea on the UK's policy on the draft) and sent over to the continent. The whole thing might have not happened. I guess it depends somewhat on when in 1996 it happened.

[Brother in Arms]

Im pretty certain that No.4 Enfield, STEN, BREN, PIAT would all rise for the grave and rear there ugly head like the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse. Im also guessing more than a couple M27A1 Thompson and MP-40's could show up as well.

From what I have heard from some residents of the South Boston Area apparently the STEN was common in Norther Ireland. Of course the AKM, G3A3, Coveted AR-18 show up there as well, But I doubt they would be just handing them out

A UK ex pat told me he had several firearms that he took to Scotland in the early 80's and he had a hunting rifle made from a Model 1917 Enfield but re chambered from .30-06 to 7.62NATO, restocked bedded and mounting a German scope.

This makes me want to watch the original T.V. show SURVIVORS!

[Brother in Arms]

I was thinking about how grenade Grenade launchers were relatively rare in UK in the 1980's. It would be really cool to work in some old flare/gas grenade launchers maybe with home made munitions


No.1 Mark 1 flare, tear gas gun:

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/MGBoards/TearGas/WebleyFedLabs-2.JPG

1.5" Federal Gas Riot gun:

http://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/products2.cfm/ID/76614/c/used-firearms

Smith and Wesson 210/276:

http://www.icollector.com/Smith-Wesson-Model-210-276-gas-gun-37mm-cal-14-barrel-parkerized-finish-DA-action-wood-stoc_i8788333

One of these would be an interesting "ENIGMA" weapons to have in the game for to add a little color,flare, smoke and gas into a game.

Oh or how about a Martini Greener Light Harpoon Gun Those have always really got my creative juices going.

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Greener_Light_Harpoon_Gun

Just some weird ideas about some old stuff that might turn up and or add some pin ache to the weapons that might be floating around.

[headquarters]

Thanks guys

..and apologies for misspelling the UK in the heading last post.

I find the information useful and it certainly gives me something to think about if trying for a UK campaign becomes reality.

as the posters point out ( thanks guys!) several factors apply that could / could not have turned out differently, namely legislation and of course possible developments due to the global situation. The list of variables could probably be expanded on.

I add my own variables as well - non goverment organized groups could cranck out primitive full/semiauto guns with simple machinery and welding equipment to arm themselves - if ammo is available.

Same sort of groups could smuggle in guns from other countries/organizations and so on.

But in all I guess that running a scarce/na policy on all sorts of weapons and ammo would be the most plausible way to go in a UK campaign. If you so choose.

I guess you could always come up with developments that lead to heavy influx of illegal arms, uinintentional proliferation of legal arms and loss of control of goverment stockpiles and armouries coupled with said primitive weapons factories that increase the density of guns.

All input appreciated ! Have a good weekend

[Rainbow Six]

Since the Dunblane thing you mentioned was in 1996, it's possible the asswipe that did it could have been called into service (I have no idea on the UK's policy on the draft) and sent over to the continent. The whole thing might have not happened. I guess it depends somewhat on when in 1996 it happened.

The shooting happened in March 1996. I think it's highly unlikely that the perpetrator would be conscripted before then. Even if the UK introduced conscription (there has been none for decades) he was 43 at the time so unlikely anyone that old would be being conscripted before the UK had even entered the War. If the shooting didn't take place in the T2k timeline I suppose he might have ended up in a home defence group after November 1997 (assuming he survived of course).

From what I have heard from some residents of the South Boston Area apparently the STEN was common in Norther Ireland. Of course the AKM, G3A3, Coveted AR-18 show up there as well, But I doubt they would be just handing them out

My earlier post referred only to the situation on the mainland - Scotland, England, and Wales. I should have clarified that. Northern Ireland would be a whole different matter - as you say all manner of weapons not readily available on the mainland would be present, but I think it would be unlikely they would find their way across to the mainland.

[.45cultist]

Plain ole smuggling, especially as authority fades away by both criminals and opponants. Stens can be made anywhere, one could cobble an arms presence, adjust the prices to reflect rarity.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind you may see a lot of interesting older weapons as well coming out of museum collections and the like - even down to melee weapons like swords, maces, etc..

and while they may sound like not that big a deal I would hate to be taking on a guy who knows how to handle a battleaxe or longsword or longbow or several guys like that if all I had was a gun with very limited ammunition capacity

[Badbru]

I generally ran a less world destroyed environment for my T2K back in the day, atleast as applied to France, Portugal, and Spain who stayed out of the war. I had the Duchy of Cornwall obtaining OLD stored weapons from Portugal and Spain. Mostly those nations stockpiled Mauser service rifles but also some G3 & CETME weapons. As global boat trips go it's a short one from southern England to the Ibirian peninsular. The more important trade was in ammunition. HM Govt and also places like the duchy of Cornwall also started producing Sten guns again or very similar copies.

[Apache6]

Sten Guns

I'd expect that the UK Government, and/or their opponents would start turning out STEN guns or some other variant of easily produced blowback SMG in armories or converted machine shops. The machinists skills are there, the plans are there and requirements is remarkably low.

I like the idea that they design a simple 9mm blowback SMG which visibly resembles the SA-80, a bull-pup configuration with an optic sight. Weapon stats would be identical to the STEN, just in a fancy package. It would be more than sufficient to give Police and Territorial Reserves a edge over most threats.

[Apache6]

Longbows

Might not be the best idea, but when I think of weapons in England I think Longbows.

I know that there a small group, but there is are 'hobbyists' who still practice with the Longbow. A single good archer, firing from concealment could be a nasty surprise for an unwary enemy. Very hard to detect due to lack of report.

Alternatively, a town militia with no firearms beyond a few double barrel shotguns might arm themselves with longbows, encouraged and trained by the mayor who is one of the before mentioned hobbyists. Not the best weapons, but better then a spear/pike/halbard.

[rcaf_777]

I'd expect that the UK Government, and/or their opponents would start turning out STEN guns or some other variant of easily produced blowback SMG in armories or converted machine shops.

Given the production run of the Sterling submachine gun and the huge stockplie the british army has in 1994. I would see them being issued and put back into small scale production. I don't think there is much diffrent design in the mech could be wrong.

[Olefin]

Actually crossbows may also be something you may see in England more than longbows. Maybe the English members of the board can provide light on if the English longbow would still be something you would see with any frequency or if it would be very rare due to the skill set needed for it being lacking in general

In my first campaign we had a character who was a full blooded Apache and he used his bow to deadly effect - especially in several ambush situations. We ran into a town militia that had a squad of archers who originally were members of an archery club as well who took out several marauders when the town was attacked when we were there.