Weapons in the uk - in a t2k scenario

[simonmark6]

I would be doubtful about longbows. The wood needs to be selected by a specialist and left to cure for a few years. In addition, they are difficult to make with maybe only 30 bowyers left in the country and hellish hard to use. English (often, but not the majority in any way, Welsh) longbowmen were professionals who had to practise for years to get the physique to fire the bow effectively.
Forensic studies of the bodies of bowmen that drowned on the Mary Rose revealed that the right sides of their bodies were massively muscled, almost to the point of deformity.
Add to that, the time it takes to get proficient with the weapon you can see why King Edward said, "If you want a good bowman, start with his grandfather."
Crossbows on the other hand are easier to use and simple to make even with basic gear (your first bow might not be very safe, but they get better). Loading is a problem but if you're in cover it's not such an issue plus it is feasible to create quick loading gear using modern kit even if it would probably be easier to just build more crossbows.
Unless you have a large stockpile of pre-cured yew and a skilled bowyer, longbows probably aren't on the menu and even then no one will be able to use them effectively for four to ten years.

[Brother in Arms]

BADBRU

Excellent point about the Iberian Pen, also Spain has an amazing history of gun making especially up north.The propensity of Ruby pistols from WW1 is just the Tip of the Iceberg.


If I had the joy of going to Spain to snatch up some weapons. There are several I would grab just just because they so hardcore.


ASTRA 903
Because what good is this world without Machine pistols!!!! Especially i you can attach a stock that is also a holster!!!!!!!!!!!!I know its 7.63 Mauser but you could be risky and shoot 7.62x25 Tokarev in it!!! ( it's Almost Identical cartridge, but its way more powerful!!!!!) Thankfully many where converted to 9x19mm(9mm luger) and some for 9mm LARGO (9x23) which can use COLT .38 super (but again its much more powerful)

http://i42.servimg.com/u/f42/12/22/90/41/astra910.jpg

STAR Z62-Z63
These are such mean looking SMG's!!! the 63 in 9mm and the the 62 in the more powerful 9mm LARGO. Rarely seen other than in Spain (maybe Africa)
I have always wanted one of these guns. Looks like a cross between a Sterling and TEC-9.

http://www.star-firearms.com/firearms/guns/smg62/

Id probably go definitely for some The CETME Model C and maybe some old CETME Modelo B's for even a little more flair. (they look really tough with the sheet metal fore end) But they CETME is a really rugged Battle rifle! The sights are a not as good as the G3 But they are easy to use. Magazines are very sturdy and I can really see it as a Twilight 2000 firearm.

Modelo A

http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/assault/as60/cetme_a.jpg

Model0 B

http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/assault/as60/cetme_b30.jpg

Modelo C

http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/assault/as60/cetme_cs.jpg

And I get tons and tons of FR-8's nice lightweight Mauser converted to 7.62NATO be a great gun for men on horseback or bicycles, has a very solid wood stock and uses CETME bayonet for those moments when you got to beat or stab someone to death.

I can see Spanish guns on British Soil I rather like the idea of this. Could be used for a game in itself!!!

Brother in Arms

[Badbru]

STAR Z62-Z63
These are such mean looking SMG's!!! the 63 in 9mm and the the 62 in the more powerful 9mm LARGO. Rarely seen other than in Spain (maybe Africa)
I have always wanted one of these guns. Looks like a cross between a Sterling and TEC-9.

http://www.star-firearms.com/firearms/guns/smg62/

BIA Thanks for reminding me about this one and the Z70B. Some of those would have made the cut. I remember really liking those way back when I was running T2K.

And I get tons and tons of FR-8's nice lightweight Mauser converted to 7.62NATO be a great gun for men on horseback or bicycles, has a very solid wood stock and uses CETME bayonet for those moments when you got to beat or stab someone to death.

I can see Spanish guns on British Soil I rather like the idea of this. Could be used for a game in itself!!!

Brother in Arms

I hadn't known that any had been modified for 7.62N but it makes sense.
The intention was to write up an entire senario just like a module where the players were a small team for HM Govt sent to recce the Duchy of Cornwall and end up discovering, tracing, and following the supply line of these weapons all the way back to Spain, or Portugal. The players would eventually be able to redirect this line to HM Govt, or anywhere within reason they chose, if they played it out right.

[CDAT]

So the FR-8 what was its original chambering The only ones I have seen are ones here in the US that are 7.62 Nato.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

So the FR-8 what was its original chambering The only ones I have seen are ones here in the US that are 7.62 Nato.

This page gives a brief but informative description of the FR-7 and FR-8 plus it has a picture of each: -

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/repeating-rifle/sp/fr-7-fr--e.html

Basically, the FR-7 is a conversion of the Spanish Model 1916 rifle while the FR-8 is a conversion of the Spanish Model 1943 rifle. I believe the parent designs were both chambered for 7x57mm Mauser and when the FR-7 and FR-8 were first introduced they were both chambered for the 7.62x51mm CETME round

[dude_uk]

Sten's PIAT'S Longbows! Have you all been at the gaffers special brew...


Right UK weapons. First off the Armed Forces.

Pistols:

Browning L9A1
The Standard up until only recently (Was a SIG, now the Glock 17) this is the pistol of the British armed forces. Expect this mainly to be issued to Officers and military police. Pistols being introduced to the rank and file is a new thing. I have no idea of the amount ordered. But I expect there to be new batch ordered from Canada or Browning USA. Soldier/Sailor/Airman has a pistol Its this.

Walther PPK.
Issued to undercovers and off duty Intelligence types.

Sig Sauer
"THEM" switched to this pistol at some point prior to 9/11. When exactly, I can't be sure.

Rifles:
SA80
This is the standard rifle 5.56 of the HM Armed forces. 300,000 were ordered in the first batch. There would be a second batch ordered in the mid nineties and possibly continue throughout the war. More on that later...

A1 A2 A3 The version that is issued to ground troops in Eastern Europe is undoubtedly the latest model. But expect earlier versions to crop up in the UK.

L1A1.
Heres a fun one... If anyone has an exact amount of how many of these were made I would generally like to know!

In our timeline, the many hundreds of thousands of these weapons were sold off en-mass to various third world countries with the end of the cold war.

Now in Twilight 2000 does this still happen Or does the UK retain these

If they do. Expect this weapon EVERYWHERE in the UK. Militia/Home defence unit This. Marauders This. These would probably be dispatched to various caches for police and Home defence military units use and would undoubtedly fall into the hands of various types. Crates would also fall off the backs of lorries...

Ammo HA! Good luck.

Colt M16
Used by special forces and was for a while issued to Northern Ireland based
infantry units. About 10,000 were ordered, mostly M16A1's. What happened to these weapons is a mystery.

Accuracy International L96A1 Sniper rifle.
The standard 90's sniper rifle. Occasional in continental and foreign based UK units. VERY rare in UK ones.

Remington 870 Shotgun
RARE. But around...

Submachine guns

MP5
Used by special forces and military police units. I would expect quite a few examples of this.

Sterling L2A3
See L1A1. Here, there and everywhere! 9mm.

Machine guns.

L7A2 GPMG
The highly prized 'battle winning' MG is going to be going to be found where British units are.
Variants:
L8A1: Coaxial for Chieftain
L8A2: Coaxial for Challenger
L20A1: Used in Helicopter gun pods
L37A1: Turrented FV432 APC
L37A2: Cupola used on challenger and probably FV432
L43A1: Scorpion mounted.

L4A4 LMG

A modified 7.62mm 'Bren' this weapons was issued as an LMG to support units who did not require GPMG. I have no idea of the amount made. But see L1A1.

Browning M2 .50 (L1A1)

Not a typo. The designation was the same! This was brought back to british units for use at checkpoints and AA duties.

Anti-tank.

M72 LAW (L1A3B1)
Cheap bunker and light vehicles buster. If the US is still using this, The UK would too. (How heavy is this for those who carried it)

LAW 80
The replacement for the LAW 66 and the Carl Gustav. One shot disposable weapon. I doubt it making an appearance in the UK.

Carl Gustav L14A1
THIS would be the older anti tank weapon brought back for UK service.

Milan Anti-tank.

Police


Pistols.
Browning

Glock
The police began to use the glock at some point in the 90's. Again I cannot be sure.

Smith and wesson .38
Issued to police and special branch. I have no idea when phased out.

Submachine gun

MP5
Semi-Auto only. British Police are NOT allowed full auto weapons.

Rifles.
G3 7.62mm

L1A1 7.62mm

Heckler & Koch HK33

There appears to be a Remington sniper rifle used. What one I do not know.

Sources of weapons.

The usual Military bases and munitions dumps, Police stations and ad-hoc places required by HM government.

Weapons manufacturers.

Contrary to popular belief small arms production in the UK was not entirely extinguished. A Third World War would probably given it boost of adrenaline.


Royal Ordnance (Owned by BAE)

The manufacture of the SA80 was completed in Royal Ordnance's Nottingham Small Arms Facility by 1994. I expect this facility to make it to WW3. However that probably wouldn't be enough to produce the many thousands of rifles...

Other facilities would have been setup. Where When What size I leave to you! This gives gamers a chance to introduce all their favourite weapons systems and no doubt examples are around for testing/comparison.

Royal Ordnance Factory Leeds.
Owned by the 1990's by Vickers Defence Systems.

BAE bought Heckler and Koch in the 1990's. A UK factory

Accuracy international. Portsmouth
Maker of the arctic warfare weapon.

Various other ones. I am not sure of a complete 1990s list.

Smaller firms.

Various 'over and under' and double barreled shotgun firms are/were knocking around. A good location for gamers.

I.E
"Pratt and sons". Trumpton, UK

Family owned Custom Shotgun manufacturer to the landed gentry since the 1880s. The firm has struggled in recent years. But has found steady sales abroad in the face of a shrinking home market. Pre-war it produced hundreds of various shotguns and rifles some to custom order.

Based on an industrial estate just outside of the small town of Trumpton. It employed 135 people and had recently upgraded its machinery. Following the nuclear exchange various weapons went missing. But some remain onsite in obscure places. Its machinery remains in place have been put into storage by the owners. Some raw materials onsite. But the machines require a generator.

[simonmark6]

Do this company employ the part time firemen Hugh Pugh, Barney McGrew, Cuthbert, Dibble and Grub

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Sig Sauer
"THEM" switched to this pistol at some point prior to 9/11. When exactly, I can't be sure.

The late 1980s-early 1990s. I personally saw them in use with Brit SAS when a large contingent of "THEM" deployed to Australia for desert training prior to Gulf War 1. Of the few I was able to get my dirty paws on, they were all P226, I don't know if they had any others.

Colt M16
Used by special forces and was for a while issued to Northern Ireland based
infantry units. About 10,000 were ordered, mostly M16A1's. What happened to these weapons is a mystery.

Brit SAS also used the XM-177E2 version of the CAR-15 in limited numbers.

Accuracy International L96A1 Sniper rifle.
The standard 90's sniper rifle. Occasional in continental and foreign based UK units. VERY rare in UK ones.

This would have been the crossover period as there were still large numbers of the L42A1 in service in the early 1990s.
Plus there would also be some Parker-Hale M82 rifle. Possibly with EOD units and also in civilian police service, as I believe the military felt the M82 was a bit too finicky or not robust enough (or something of that nature) for army use. However the greatest number served as training rifles in the Cadet forces as the L81, all chambered for 7.62mm NATO but these are configured as civilian target rifles rather than proper sniping rifles.

Machine guns.

L4A4 LMG
A modified 7.62mm 'Bren' this weapons was issued as an LMG to support units who did not require GPMG. I have no idea of the amount made. But see L1A1.

Not a huge number in existence as they were all conversions of .303 Brens (using the knowledge gained by Inglis of Canada from the manufacture of Nationalist Chinese contract Bren guns chambered for the 7.92x57mm Mauser round)

Browning M2 .50 (L1A1)

There was also another Browning machinegun in use with British forces and it was found in large numbers due to the use as a co-ax on earlier tanks and for arming APCs. The L3, the British designation for the Browning M1919A4.
If you really want to mess with the PCs supply chain, these British Brownings could be the WW2 era Mk1 and Mk2 models that were chambered for .303

I believe that up to the 1980s the British also kept modest stocks of the Vickers Machine Gun as a potential support MG. the notion being that they would be chambered in 7.62mm NATO as the South Africans and Australians had done to some of their Vickers guns. I don't have any solid references to this but the Vickers was still used until March 1968 and if it was kept in war stores for the same 20-30 year period that Australia has, it's possible there would still be stocks of them in the 1990s.

Anti-tank.

M72 LAW (L1A3B1)
Cheap bunker and light vehicles buster. If the US is still using this, The UK would too. (How heavy is this for those who carried it)

2.5kg from memory but that's approximate because there's minor variation based on what model and who made it.

[CDAT]

The US Army started phasing out the LAW's in the mid late 1980's for the AT-4 I do know that some were taken to Desert Storm, but as far as I know that was really the last of them. Tell jumping to mid late 2000's the USMC started making a new updated LAW's.

[Brother in Arms]

Quite honestly there are lots of firearms in the UK just mostly out of the hands of civilians.

British 1919 in 7.62 NATO would probably be around, fairly common vehicles in the 70's and 80's, Ferret and Shorland Armored cars had them. (they were also in .30-06 and .303 as well at different periods of time)

I honestly don't know how common the SA-80 would really be I think a lot of things would be different with this rifle if the twilight war had happened.

That being said the Single shot or manually operated CADET model would be an interesting rifle to have appear in the game.

Id much rather carry an SLR than any SA-80..

and yes the SAS used the XM-177 and XM-177E1 but i haven't seen the E2 being used by them. They also used the HK G3A3, G3A4 and G3A3K

Enfield even made these HK type weapons!!!!

Also there is/was a bunker in Faldingworth with about 100,000+ Ak's (and load of other arms) in it but they wouldn't be there if the war in the Balkans hadn't ended. Might be a good place to have in a game.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I honestly don't know how common the SA-80 would really be I think a lot of things would be different with this rifle if the twilight war had happened.

Probably would be quite common for the 2nd Edition timeline, I tend to agree with a few others in thinking that the product development would have been accelerated once war was looming on the horizon.

and yes the SAS used the XM-177 and XM-177E1 but i haven't seen the E2 being used by them.

Opps my mistake, I actually meant the E1 version. I'm going to blame the keyboard because I'm certainly not going to blame my lack of attention & clumsy, fat fingers!
The SAS also used the Ingram MAC10 before they switched to the MP5 series so that's another potential weapon for British Forces.

[Targan]

Id much rather carry an SLR than any SA-80.

Word.

[mpipes]

Does everyone think the UK troops would have tried to muddle through with the dreadful SA80 The upgrade program was just getting going in 1997, and with some 350,000 to repair, they were not getting far till much later.

In my pondering, I just don't think the SA80s would have been used long by front line troops. In its unimproved state, the gun is neither reliable or well liked, having at least 50 identified faults. The L1A1s could have been pulled out of storage, but they would have made getting in and out of a Warrior or helicopter a bit of a challenge. To be sure, a lot of L1A1 would be issued, but I'm not sure mechanized infantry would have liked lugging it around.

Personally, I think the bulk of the Brits in Germany would have ended up with former East German AK-74 variants converted to 5.56mm. The UK arms industry was not, in my opinion, in a state so as to be able to turn out an acceptable substitute in the numbers required, so the UK would have to have to get weapons from someplace. The Germans literally had tens of thousand AK variants sitting around, and no where near the manpower demands for all of them in 1996. The other alternative would be the US M-16A1 or A2 and its Canadian copy, but I believe most US manufacturing capacity would be directed to getting new US units armed.

Any thoughts

[StainlessSteelCynic]

My thoughts on the SA80 family.

There were definitely problems with the L85A1 but they were not as dreadful as the media and the haters like to make out. A lot of the criticism was opinionated and ill-informed and regurgitated by people who had never been in the military or studied military firearms.
To quote Ian Hogg from the book "Military Small Arms of the 20th Century" published in 1990,
"the first five years of this rifle's service have been disastrous. A number of manufacturing defects showed up in service conditions, and it was not until the closure of the RSAF at Enfield and the setting up of an entirely new production line, with new computer-controlled machine tools, at the new RSAF Nottingham, that the quality of the production weapons began to improve. It will take some time for the poor reputation gained by the initial issue weapons to be overcome; the only consolation is that the same sort of thing has happened to other military rifles in the past, and they have managed to live down their early reputation and prove their innate reliability. It is to be hoped that the L85A1 will do so as well."

The serious problems like the exposed magazine release and bad plastic for the furniture could be corrected easy enough. The reliability problems were largely caused by poor quality of materials and poor quality manufacture. As noted by Hogg, many of these issues were problems stemming from the first production line at RSAF Enfield. Once the production was switched to a new centre at Nottingham, some of the production quality issues cleared up but they still used low grade materials for much of the manufacture. These problems did not go away so easily and resulted in the rebuild programme in 2000 that lead to the L85A2.

Having had the opportunity to use the L85A1 over several days in early 1990, in my mind, the only significant long-term issues were it's inability to lose heat quickly when it was fired continuously and the weight compared to other 5.56mm rifles. Even the problem of the bolt group flying out the back during disassembly could be overcome by proper training in strip/assemble of the weapon.
All the other issues were a result of badly managed development/production, probably as a result of the desire to rush it into service as a British answer to the 5.56mm rifle (when it was originally meant to fire a 4.85mm round).

I personally believe that in the 2nd Edition timeline, with a potential war looming the product development would have been accelerated and these teething problem would have been corrected so the rifle could be issued to frontline troops. The rebuild programme of 2000 would have occurred much sooner because HM Government would not be cutting back on defence spending as they did in real life.

As for carrying the L1A1 and embussing or debussing a vehicle or helicopter, it's not really an issue, you learn how to carry your gear so it doesn't cause a problem. The squaddies you should really feel sorry for are the ones who had to carry the Charlie G or the Milan.
And as for mech infantry not liking carrying the L1A1, they did it in the past and in regards to the 2nd Ed. timeline it was the very recent past. Most of them would just be changing back to a rifle they had been carrying only a few years earlier when many of them were still carted around in the FV432.

[CDAT]

So a question, reading over this is L used like we here in the states us M or Mk By that I guess I am asking is L1 and L2 totaly different weapons just L2 came out after L1, where L1A1 would be the updated version of the L1