To Fortify? That is the question...

[kalos72]

So as the story develops in South Texas in my game, the questions has come up about the need for every major settlement to have a rubble/dirt mound wall around it for protection.

My game has the III Corps landing back in Texas to rebuild...has secured 2-3 counties and it trying to secure the major settlements. They are training local militias for the day to day security of each settlement.

So for say Victoria, population limited to about 10k maybe (population limits for major settlements still being discussed) and digging a "moat" at a 5 square mile perimeter an making a wall out of the excavated earth and then using that as city limits and patrolled by the militia.

Now if the SHTF there is local military support but for the small stuff, the militia would need to handle.

The thinking here is:
1. Keeps unregistered people (non-citizens) from just sneaking into the city
2. It limits the population some by the physical boundary set by the wall. The society is mostly agrarian, they HAVE to be able to support themselves locally.
3. Helps with general security of the city

But I imagine digging a 5 square mile moat and then creating a suitable wall out of it, around each County Seat...maybe a 2 sqm around every city would take alot of work.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

If they come back with CEVs or M88s they could raid local highways (and state DOT facilities) for stacks of Jersey Barriers to build a concrete rampart around a settlement. I mean, it could be done with other vehicles too assuming they could get them working. It might be an easier option than a lot of manual digging - that's going to burn precious calories for both citizens and soldiers...

[kalos72]

Let's assume heavy equipment / vehicles and fuel are not an issue...

I am just not sure its worth it really, with an active and vigilant police force and militia, not sure the value is there for al the effort.

But I do like the idea of the towns being able to defend themselves from marauders should they get past the active military patrols on the outskirts of each County.

[Badbru]

So as the story develops in South Texas in my game, the questions has come up about the need for every major settlement to have a rubble/dirt mound wall around it for protection.

You need to go back in history quite a bit to find a time when settlements of any size had/needed a wall around it for protection. Pre gunpowder history even.

My game has the III Corps landing back in Texas to rebuild...has secured 2-3 counties and it trying to secure the major settlements. They are training local militias for the day to day security of each settlement.

When you say "has secured 2-3 counties" that's a past tense statement. You allready consider 2-3 whole counties "secured" do these, or even just the settlements in them, have defensives motes and berms I'm thinking not, so...

So for say Victoria, population limited to about 10k maybe (population limits for major settlements still being discussed) and digging a "moat" at a 5 square mile perimeter an making a wall out of the excavated earth and then using that as city limits and patrolled by the militia.

Ten thousand people per 5 square miles sounds like a pretty high population density to me. I admit I'm not that informed on population densities but I doubt you could put that many people inside a 5 square mile perimeter AND have them self sustaining on other land within that perimeter so that kinda rules out point two.

The thinking here is:
1. Keeps unregistered people (non-citizens) from just sneaking into the city

Any well patrolled fence will do that.

2. It limits the population some by the physical boundary set by the wall. The society is mostly agrarian, they HAVE to be able to support themselves locally.

See above but there are other easier ways to controll the numbers of population and population will be dictated more by the viability of the land for food crops production than any local defense earthen works.

3. Helps with general security of the city

Yeah it may well do, but I saw the last five minutes of a TV show about Chinas' Great Wall, and guess what, it didn't actually keep people out. At one point a gate was opened for the Monghol army.

But I imagine digging a 5 square mile moat and then creating a suitable wall out of it, around each County Seat...maybe a 2 sqm around every city would take alot of work.

I see my response as a bit harsh but I'm with Raketenjagdpanzer on this one. Even with equipment and machinery that's going to be a major undertaking taking valuable man hours and resources perhaps better spent, if they have that engineering machinery, rebuilding roads, or the other recent hot topic, Railways.

Defensive hardpoints with elevated observation towers spaced every 600 meters or so around a fenced perimeter with some clear fields of fire will be more than adequate defense for your town because you really don't want to be facing any threat to ten thousand people right on those ten thousand peoples doorsteps anyway. Where is your defence in depth

[kalos72]

Victoria for example...

110k over 33 square miles - so 10k over 5 doesnt seem off - but I could be wrong. I cant really find a real world example or even anything in game for perspective.

Yes, 2 full counties and Galveston County are fully under III Corps control by the end of the year 2000.

Where do you "find" 5 square miles of fence exactly...I guess you could make a "living fence" but thats years in the making.

Anyone have anything on the defensive works in Irag/Afghanistan maybe

[raketenjagdpanzer]

A lot of your material can come from demolished houses. Bulldoze up some buildings and you've got a workable rampart. Of course, speaking of buildings, fence between them and you now have a series of strongpoints connected by a defensive wall...

By example, part of my problem with the vision of Central Florida is that we're all basically suburbs here around a pretty porous city. Defending against a serious invasion here would be difficult. We have some natural barriers in places like swamps, but on the overall it's not a great area to try and defend. Mostly it's flat and covered with very convenient roads.

Trying to build a wall around Orlando, even one with a population of "only" 30000-50000 clustered near the middle of the city, would be a years-long undertaking requiring resources and people on an unprecedented scale, and huge I mean huge amounts of fuel for trucks to move material because honestly you're talking about millions upon millions of tons of earth, concrete and timbers. Even if optimistically you say 25% of your population can be part of the workforce and would be willing to be, without at least a few front end loaders and dump trucks working, circling an area like (again, for example) downtown orlando with a defensive wall of any consequence would be basically impossible to do in any practical length of time. Going by hand, by the time you got it finished you'd have the government back in control of the situation and it would be superfluous.

NOW WITH THAT SAID...

If you're talking about a small town, or a subdivision Yeah, that's do-able! Heck, I look at the gated communities around here with their "ornamental" brick walls that surround them and access control points and think: yeah, that's DEFINITELY a good start! Some of them I see around here, you could top the walls with concertina and beef up the access gates and BAM - instant Keep!

Then, if you've got the fuel, you use your vehicles for "thunder runs" making sure each community is well supplied. Plus you could build up a comm network between them. Set, say, a mortar team locally to each neighborhood, and pre-plot some fire, then you train the local PD on how to call it in, give them a simplified map, overlap those mortar areas for mutual support...that's how I'd do it. Small walls, but a good support network.

[kalos72]

But why go through all that extra effort

Excavate an area and pile the excavated material on the inside of the "moat". Now you have a moat and wall, needing some work obviously but the vast majority of a wall system is taken care of right from the site.

Give a couple of bulldozers and some diggers a few days and I am sure they can get the basics done a couple miles a day. No

I would prefer just chain link and elevated guard towers but that unrealistic on the scale I am looking at.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

But why go through all that extra effort

Excavate an area and pile the excavated material on the inside of the "moat". Now you have a moat and wall, needing some work obviously but the vast majority of a wall system is taken care of right from the site.

Give a couple of bulldozers and some diggers a few days and I am sure they can get the basics done a couple miles a day. No

I would prefer just chain link and elevated guard towers but that unrealistic on the scale I am looking at.

Why is the chain-link and guard towers unrealistic

You can put "nests" on top of now no-longer-used power poles in neighborhoods, there's your towers...as to chain link fencing, remember, most good sized urban areas now have almost completely abandoned hardware stores and depending on the area they're likely to have LOTS Of chain-link fencing. Some can be acquired from other places (around school playgrounds, tennis courts, etc.). I think chainlink fencing is more plausible than ramparts, tbh!

[kalos72]

I am thinking of 5 square miles...per County Seat. Two square miles for everything else...

That seems like alot to "salvage" from old warehouse and such...look at Victoria TX for example. I am not seeing alot of chain link on Google Earth, although it can be hard to see I know.

If the consensus is that it shouldn't be a problem...then that solves most of my problem.

I tend to be too realistic in my games...so if I cant figure it out in real life then I usually dont let it go in game.

[kalos72]

Perhaps a better solution would be this:

Setup a firebase (vietnam style) for the garrison and then just have multiple "guard posts" through out the city proper to check papers and at the roads into town maybe

Wouldn't help with any sort of assault/attack however...

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I am thinking of 5 square miles...per County Seat. Two square miles for everything else...

That seems like alot to "salvage" from old warehouse and such...look at Victoria TX for example. I am not seeing alot of chain link on Google Earth, although it can be hard to see I know.

If the consensus is that it shouldn't be a problem...then that solves most of my problem.

I tend to be too realistic in my games...so if I cant figure it out in real life then I usually dont let it go in game.

Honestly, if a garrison is willing to accept some lower Chain link fencing of the "domestic" type (e.g., back yard fencing) I don't see why not.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Perhaps a better solution would be this:

Setup a firebase (vietnam style) for the garrison and then just have multiple "guard posts" through out the city proper to check papers and at the roads into town maybe

Wouldn't help with any sort of assault/attack however...

That might be the better bet. Declaring the national emergency and asking (that is, ordering) people to relocate closer to the firebase, then in the event of a serious emergency response time to threatened locals can be quicker or, if need be, they can enter the protective perimeter of the base faster.

[kato13]

A few points.


1) Ground excavation in Texas is more difficult than in the rest of the country. Under the initial soil layer you have generally either limestone or clay. Limestone is hard to dig and the Texas clay reacts between the water table and the dry air, this leads to shifting and cracking. This is why basements are rare in Texas.

So you either have more effort up front (limestone) or a lot more maintenance (clay) when compared to other areas of the country.

Once you remove the topsoil you have to deal with this.




2) Generally large defensive fortifications not successful.

If you look through history unless you have a high troop density covering the fortification, weak spots will be found and at best you can hope that the defensive structures either channel them in some way or slow the enemy in retreat.

I would make small fortifications to allow for the people to hold up until that cavalry arrives (or day breaks) and use the rest of the earth moving resources to improve the farms.






3) There is a reason barbed wire was invented for and used so extensively in the American West. It is cheap, uses minimum resources, and can cover vast distances.

With very basic equipment it can also be used to relay phone signals.

http://www.geek.com/news/good-old-days-rural-telephone-network-was-built-using-barbed-wire-fences-1534417/

[CDAT]

I know several combat engineers who ran D-7 dozers and doing five miles of earth berm not a problem talking with them not even that long to do week or two. In my first deployment to Iraq in 03 we showed up and were told that this plot of land was going to be our base camp for the next little bit, our engineers had dozers and SEE trucks, with in two days we had all the trees, weeds and such dozed down had a berm around the oebase and by weeks end had wire up around as well.

[stormlion1]

Shipping Containers might be an option. Take them and fill them with dirt and rubble and you have an instant wall that can stop small arms fire. Relatively lightweight to move when empty and heavy as sin when full. Plus they can be stacked to form higher walls (I'd bolt them together for added strength) or have a container placed on the inside of the wall to use for storage or with some work as barracks.