Your thoughts on the (cannon) Presidential line of succession?

[rcaf_777]

Let not forgot the US has the designated survivor rule, which cam out of the cold war, I am thinking that once the Twilight War starts they a rotation of person held a a secure location for set time period.

[Olefin]

I dont GDW knew of a lot of the government shelters that were in place around DC that are in WV, MD and elsewhere - given the nature of the war you have to figure that once the nukes started to fly that there would have been designated Presidential successors in shelters at all times - there is no way there would have no US President for 22 hours - and there are so many backup communication systems that even if the whole country had been blanketed by EMP there were systems that EMP doesnt take take down that the government had in place by the early 90's

And the only way that the VP would have stayed in the White House to try to ride out the attack would have been in there was no other way to get out of Dodge -something like a Spetsnaz attack on the White House keeping the VP pinned down or whatever

[Enfield]

I think the basic idea makes sense of the succession being messed up. I was recently watching the series "Designated Survivor" which points out that even with a relatively controlled disaster (death of most of the cabinet and congress, but no national massacre) it is difficult to replace a lot of missing people, especially when managing an emergency. It's not the best series, but not bad, btw.

Anyway, my thought was this:
Tanner and Pemberton die along with most of the cabinet, congress and government leaders in the initial exchange.

Following this, the Speaker, a designated survivor, and a senior cabinet officer are among those left. They did not appoint acting secretaries because functions were being carried out under emergency powers by Chiefs of Staff, senior bureaucrats and agency heads who had survived.

The key question appears to be whether or not Munson or his successors appointed any acting secretaries. If they had, this would preserve presidential succession, and i think its reasonable for some GMS to have it so. For my own part, I was never entirely happy with the Broward thing.

Personally, while I am aware of the connection between Twilight 2000 and 2300 AD, I have never really been interested in that future, so I don't care about the US no longer being a military power. What I hve always been far more interested in is post apocalyptic ficition and roleplaying.

The idea of a succession conflict between two cabinet officers seems easily resolved to me: they'd know one another, and the succession depends on their position or the date of their appointment. So it might present a controversy for a time, but it seems to be that if, say, A Secretary of Defense was in charge but then a Secretary of State emerged, the government would have to recognize the Secretary of State as being the legitimate head of government.

[wolffhound79]

I wondered about this myself. I figured that with the state of chaos that was happening that certain people became lost or victims of circumstance. I had my player come across a remote mountain holiday town that was more then happy to get rid of a certain loud mouth senator that had been a thorn in there side since being trapped there in late 1997. About an hour after they had left with him , my brother looks at me and says "Did we just find the legitimate president" I spent the next 3 hours googling trying to see if I just gave him the golden goose. I had them transport the senator to his brother, a general in the Milgov friendly forces of nevada and he was kinda hidden away just in case Mil gov ever found out.

Then to mess with them I had them encounter National Guards men in northern New Mexico under command of the true president. Made a little conspiracy back story and everything. Radio broadcast calling all loyal citizens to arms and every once in awhile coming across small groups of refugees or a few stragglers making there way to the president.

[Enfield]

I wondered about this myself. I figured that with the state of chaos that was happening that certain people became lost or victims of circumstance. I had my player come across a remote mountain holiday town that was more then happy to get rid of a certain loud mouth senator that had been a thorn in there side since being trapped there in late 1997. About an hour after they had left with him , my brother looks at me and says "Did we just find the legitimate president" I spent the next 3 hours googling trying to see if I just gave him the golden goose. I had them transport the senator to his brother, a general in the Milgov friendly forces of nevada and he was kinda hidden away just in case Mil gov ever found out.

Then to mess with them I had them encounter National Guards men in northern New Mexico under command of the true president. Made a little conspiracy back story and everything. Radio broadcast calling all loyal citizens to arms and every once in awhile coming across small groups of refugees or a few stragglers making there way to the president.

This is kind of what I mean. While the canon is interesting, it does have its flaws and ultimately a GM is going to tailor the game to their own campaign. I like the idea of the senator and the general being related, for example, that's a nice detail.

[wolffhound79]

Thank you. That is why I like this site. People are nice here.

[rcaf_777]

Hey!

I'm wondering if you guys have a different timeline for presidential succession in your games, then that HW presented

As a refreshing:

1. President Tanner killed during takeoff accident on KNEECAP during TDM
2. VP Pembleton killed during direct hit missile strike on WH (also during TDM).
3. US without a president for 22 hours.
4. Speaker of the House Munson inaugurated after 22 hours (or so) of no president.
5. Munson suffers nervous breakdown, and is relieved.
6. Former Secretary of State (Munson's successor) suffers heart failure.
7. Former Secretary of Energy (Sec. of State's successor) commits suicide
8. No longer an operation CLS, no attempt was made to locate successor.
9. Rump Congress elects John Boward President.

Would this really have happened if such a event were to happen today Even after 9/11 and all the COOP that happened afterword

What I don't get is on Thursday, November 27 1997, the Soviet Union launches a surprise first strike against targets in the United States. Guess what it's a long weekend who from the Cabinet, Congress, White House, Judges, Defense ect is going to be working The Pres and VP no way there away with families, some might be in the WH but won't Pres VP or the designated survivor. Same goes for congress, they closed shop IRL on 11 Nov 97. The US has had 48 years to prepare for war with the Soviet Union, do you really think let their guard down once war was declare so do think that Executive Order 12656 of November 18, 1988 would come onto play

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Executive_Order_12656

BTW National Emergency Airborne Command Post (NEACP) (often pronounced "kneecap") designed to survive an EMP with systems intact but that for another time

[Legbreaker]

...a long weekend during the second year of a global war that just keeps getting bigger. Pretty sure not that many in positions of authority are getting many days off...

[rcaf_777]

...a long weekend during the second year of a global war that just keeps getting bigger. Pretty sure not that many in positions of authority are getting many days off...

What would make sense except that there people working at

Mount Weather Emergency Operations Center
Raven Rock Mountain Complex (RRMC)
Presidential Emergency Facilities
Cheyenne Mountain Complex
Olney Federal Support Center
The National Warning System (NAWAS)
Post Attack Command and Control System (PACCS)
Worldwide Military Command and Control System

So there people working but not in Washington, Congress and Pres and VP are are still elected officials and still duties to do outside of Washington. And with the threat of nuclear war why keep all your eggs in one basket.

[Enfield]

What would make sense except that there people working at

Mount Weather Emergency Operations Center
Raven Rock Mountain Complex (RRMC)
Presidential Emergency Facilities
Cheyenne Mountain Complex
Olney Federal Support Center
The National Warning System (NAWAS)
Post Attack Command and Control System (PACCS)
Worldwide Military Command and Control System

So there people working but not in Washington, Congress and Pres and VP are are still elected officials and still duties to do outside of Washington. And with the threat of nuclear war why keep all your eggs in one basket.

I think that government would be reasonably well distributed. There are questions of course as to how good communications, lines of supply and infrastructure could be maintained. I've found sources on this point to be contradictory, forcing the GM to choose what he finds most interesting and consistent. Since this is about the succession, though, I'll try to come back to the point.

I found this site has a very good idea.

1. The Speaker of the House is appointed President after the deaths of the President and the Vice-President. (You don't even need to explain this to nitpickers, you simply have to have a devastating nuclear attack and have them go incommunicado. In the novel/film this campaign apppears to be partly based on, the Mt. Weather shelter gets hit, as I recall, and the President's plane takes a hit and goes down as well)

2. The Speaker decides to appoint the Director of the CIA as his Vice-President as per the Tom Clancy series, which I found a fun idea. It doesn't matter if this is actually what happens, all that is necessary is for the appointment to not be able to be ratified by Congress, due to a nuclear war.

3. Now, on the site I linked, it follows the same canon exactly with name changes; a Chairman of the Joint Chiefs refuses to recognize the appointment.

I thought it would be interesting if instead of #3, there is another surviving member of the government in the order of succession, doesn't matter who, who gets backed by enough of the military to form something like Milgov. It could, for instance, be a Cabinet Secretary, President Pro Tem of the Senate, etc. I think, however, that this would be downright confusing, even maddening, to many people who just want the government to get on with it. Which is part of why I like it.

[Olefin]

The big issue in general with the line of succession in the game is that the Speaker of the House would not have been allowed to be incommunicado like that in time of war. The US military has communications designed to survive under nuclear attack - they would have had people with him at all times. Or they would have immediately moved to number four on the list - especially with the country under nuclear attack. Any lack of ability to communicate with him and he would have been assumed lost and right down the list they go.

The game in general has the US military and govt act in ways that would never happen in real life - and the succession issues in the game definitely DO NOT dovetail with actual procedures.

in other words the head of the Senate would have been made president and Munson would have missed his opportunity - if you go by real world figures Trent Lott gets sworn in as President (he was the majority leader of the Senate in 1997 IRL)

[Legbreaker]

May not have been by choice. Could be the speaker was out of touch because to the impact EMP had to the available communications. Could well have been greater than expected - we already know certain elements of real world physics have been slightly altered by GDW (such as radiation half life), no reason this should be any different.

[Enfield]

The big issue in general with the line of succession in the game is that the Speaker of the House would not have been allowed to be incommunicado like that in time of war. The US military has communications designed to survive under nuclear attack - they would have had people with him at all times. Or they would have immediately moved to number four on the list - especially with the country under nuclear attack. Any lack of ability to communicate with him and he would have been assumed lost and right down the list they go.

The game in general has the US military and govt act in ways that would never happen in real life - and the succession issues in the game definitely DO NOT dovetail with actual procedures.

in other words the head of the Senate would have been made president and Munson would have missed his opportunity - if you go by real world figures Trent Lott gets sworn in as President (he was the majority leader of the Senate in 1997 IRL)

As I said, I have always taken the canon as a model, as have others. Its neat, but, as you say, it has flaws, not the least of which were the greater challenges of doing research in pre internet days.

Anyway, it's easily fixed. First, have the Vice-President killed by other means. Heart attack, or shelter they were taken to is nuked, etc. Or even the VP does survive. The main point is: how do you create an interesting succession crisis

Some gms will not want one. Others will like it. I'm on the fence about it at the moment as I'm planning my campaign.

[Olefin]

May not have been by choice. Could be the speaker was out of touch because to the impact EMP had to the available communications. Could well have been greater than expected - we already know certain elements of real world physics have been slightly altered by GDW (such as radiation half life), no reason this should be any different.

US military communications are built to survive exactly the kind of EMP effects that T2K shows - in fact they are built to handle worse than that. The Soviets never used an EMP specific bomb - i.e. high altitude bursts - to burn out the electronics - the effects were strictly localized. Also keep in mind that in 1997 most of the country still had good old fashioned hard lines not cell phones.

And one big reason the communications are that good is that the guys in the launch centers have orders to launch the missiles on their own if they lose communications. Once that timer goes to zero they own the birds. And the game definitely doesnt have the launch control centers salvoing every missile they had - i.e. they maintained communications even during the TDM and only launched as directed - thats why the damage was as limited as it was - i.e. neither side launched a general nuclear attack.

[Legbreaker]

US military communications are built to survive exactly the kind of EMP effects that T2K shows - in fact they are built to handle worse than that.

Yes, I'm aware of that and believe I've referred to it in my earlier post.
However, just because it was built to cope with what was expected doesn't mean it actually performed that well. Could be the various assumptions made did not meet the "reality" of T2K and it's slightly altered real world physics. Could be there was a fault in a critical element of the system which turned out to be fatal. Could be a cyber attack disabled it in the minutes before the strikes. Could be any number of factors, real or fictional (as far as OUR reality goes).

Really, it doesn't matter WHAT the reason was. All that matters is the system failed in some manner and the Speaker was out of contact. It may well be that the inhabitants of the T2K universe never find out what went wrong. It may remain a mystery to all (and perhaps a story hook to potentially expand on at some point). Could be that generations to come look upon that failure as many now do with the Kennedy assassination or moon landing.