T2K Today

[kcdusk]

I'm very late to this thread, and new to the longer issues in/around Israel. My question was going to be that Israel was hit by 8,000 (or was it 5,000) missiles last year.

I agree 100% that Israeli's current response seems disproportionate to the provocation. 400 Palestinians dead (at least a quarter of them civilians) for 3 dead Israeli civilians tells the story here.

I dont know what the death toll was in Israel last year. Does it even matter No wonder Isreal have had enough.

So my question was going to be what option does Israel have

And i cant believe (OK, i can believe but i am still dissappointed) that the United Nations have asked Isreal to stop Where were the UN all of last year

I dont know whose right or wrong. But i find it hard to belive isreal has been asked to stop after having to put with with missiles everday.

If your looking for humour in the situation. The UN met for many hours today to discuss the latest developments (like this cropped up over night) and they couldnt even agree on the wording of a press release (yikes!).

[ChalkLine]

To get some perspective;

The traffic in Tel Aviv is about thirty times more deadly than Hamas rockets. Yes, the rockets have killed about twenty people over several years, a total of four deaths in the latest attacks.

The IDF, which I consider quite different to Israel, killed about three hundred and fifty people in the first three days. As is usual for so many deaths in a built up area, twenty per cent were minors.

Regardless of how provoked Israel is, it is quite clear that no one has any sort of control over the IDF. Factor in how provoked the people of Gaza are and you can see this is terribly one-sided.

For a very good explanation of the current events I recommend checking the RPG.net thread on the matter.

[Mohoender]

I'm very late to this thread, and new to the longer issues in/around Israel. My question was going to be that Israel was hit by 8,000 (or was it 5,000) missiles last year.

Kc when you give figures could you look at the right sources please. The number of missiles, however, has been none .

1500 rockets and 1600 mortar rounds had been the number with almost none during the cease fire period (I should have checked that myself before): 32 and 42 respectively during the cease fire. Therefore, I was wrong Hamas respected the cease fire. I'll have to check more carefully on Israel leveling up the blocus.

These figure must be true as they are coming out of the IDF itself. That is more than in 2006 and 2007, however. I'm not saying that it is fine of course but I would think that it matters.

I checked on the blocus (UN sources+press). According to UN the blocus was never leveled. Construction projects including these intiated by the UN itself had to be stopped (including schools and hospitals). Unemployment rose to about 50%. Electricity is cut about 5/hrs a day and might be cut definitely. I wander why one of the early attack by the IDF hit the UN buildings at Gaza. Right before the offensive, the UN and several organization appealed for an almost 500 million $ aid to Gaza. The reason was the deteriorating situation resulting from the continuing Blocus by Israel. By the way, a similar situation is appearing near the Barrier on the West bank and around the illegoal collonies.

So lets use the international and israelian figures to draw a small no-conclusion: Hamas respected its word, Israel didn't. Hamas kept saying it over and over we didn't listen. And of course we expect Hamas to quitefully wait and see the population drift into misery and die. Someone asked if something more sinister is going on, my answer was Yes. Now I'm scared by how sinister it might become. Of course, you can burn me (at least in words) but don't forget to burn all of the UN institutions, many of our own specialists (including several US citizens and at least one of the former US president) and the IDF spokesman. Not really looking at humour into this but it could have eased things a bit. So as we have to go to the full drama lets do it. Because of you all, I have looked a bit deeper into this, only scratching the surface of things (thanks) and my opinion is made. Make you own but if you have to do it, look at direct sources.

[kcdusk]

Kc when you give figures could you look at the right sources please. The number of missiles, however, has been none .

I was quoting the local tv station from tonight. Channel 7 for those people in australia.

[Mohoender]

I was quoting the local tv station from tonight. Channel 7 for those people in australia.

I guessed. I didn't think you were doing that baddly but I was sure that you were getting these figures from local or national press. Lately I haven't seen these guys doing their job correctly (except of course for the one getting killed or imprisoned everywhere, including the western world). Taking whatever news you can find, I would estimate something like 90% of the informations to be either false, incomplete or changed to make you believe what they want to sale you as the truth. Don't take me wrong, I don't think that the press is working for any kind of global plot, just that it works for its interest and money earning. Therefore, it sales us what we are the more ready to buy: an entirely demoniac Hamas to some and an Americano/Jewish plot to others (the people holding on the middle ground are not customers anyway). I knew before Iraq that Saddam had no mass destruction weapon left, very competent people screamed it to the world, but most of the world still bought that crap. Saddam is gone, nice, but I still find the level of casualties to be outrageous (40000 for US and somewhere between 200.000 and 1.5 Million for Iraq if you are including the ten years inerwar period: 1992-2003). In Israel, the number of rockets fired since the end of the cease fire increased quickly and that was unacceptable. However, without concern for the world I would have feared for a Palestinian Genocide, we can now hope that it should remain a limited massacre.

If I was just to give you an advice, take the press as a starting point (that is also true for wikipedia...) and go further as many informations are available on the net. Nevertheless, what I gave is also partially incomplete and a broader range of interpretation can be made out of it (the figures may not be entirely accurate as I had no time to cross reference them). As I said, I only scratched the surface of things and my second opinion might be entirely wrong (In fact, I'm sure it is at least partially wrong). I still agree with the idea that both side bear part of the guilt but I'm convinced that we could do just a little more if we were properly informed. As I said, I remain somewhat idealistic and I remain convinced that information is the key. Before, you could find it in Cafs and Bars, now internet is helping on that matter.

[Targan]

So my question was going to be what option does Israel have

How about not killing entire families just to kill one Hamas personality I know, I know, its just crazy ole Targan talking crazy again...

[Mohoender]

How about not killing entire families just to kill one Hamas personality I know, I know, its just crazy ole Targan talking crazy again...

And I thought I was an idealist

[Grimace]

Guys, let's remember what kato suggested about not pissing in our own "bed" here. Some people seem to be getting rather opinionated about things, and may be saying some things that they don't necessarily intend to sound the way they do.

A lot of people have strong opinions about this conflict, and about the events revolving around the whole situation, and if people continue to spout out things that can inflame tempers, we're likely going to have our own little shouting match on this board again.

So let's take a break from Israel and the Palestinians, otherwise when kato gets back he's going to have to be stomping out fires and possibly banning people for things they've said. I don't think any of us really want that, do we

[Mohoender]

I agree Grim but so far I found all this exchange to be quite respectful. No one has insulted anyone (or so I feel). Sorry if its the case. I might be wrong but the general consensus seem to be "lets look at things" and "the situation is dramatic from whatever side you take it".

I agree that things have to retain some sense of measures but if we all had the same point of view, there would be no point of having a forum at all. We might not all have the same views on things (game and else) but I personally find all opinion to be valuable. I usually get more from people with different points of view as they force me to go deeper into things. At times, I find out that I might be right, at other time I find that they are, but at least I'm not stuck with static ready made opinions (built up from one sided press views).

[Haven]

Preface: Opinion... also i could argue the same thing for the Hamas side.

This is meant with respect and with no malice towards anyone.

To get some perspective;
The traffic in Tel Aviv is about thirty times more deadly than Hamas rockets. Yes, the rockets have killed about twenty people over several years, a total of four deaths in the latest attacks.

Regardless of effectiveness they are attacks and they are continuing, constant attacks.

Should Israel just wait until Hamas gets better rockets before responding

"We'll ignore it until they really do something bad and kill more people," is not good policy for a nation under constant attack.

Kinda sounds like the WTC to me.

The IDF, which I consider quite different to Israel, killed about three hundred and fifty people in the first three days. As is usual for so many deaths in a built up area, twenty per cent were minors.

So basically this all boils down to effectiveness of military action It shouldn't.

IDF is better at killing than Hamas; Plain and simple.

But they are both attacking each other so I don't see how you can blame Israel more than Hamas.

Equal parties in guilt.

Regardless of how provoked Israel is, it is quite clear that no one has any sort of control over the IDF. Factor in how provoked the people of Gaza are and you can see this is terribly one-sided.

It is one-sided.

It has BEEN one-sided.

So much so that like the enemies of the US, they don't even try conventional attacks anymore.

This is a war in the media and world opinion and any civilians are currently caught in the cross-fire and are being used as ammunition.

Israel is pretty much in a no win situation.
- It defends itself against rocket attacks with wide scale military action it is branded by the world as a bully
- It defends itself against rocket attacks with a 'measured response' and Israelis say they aren't doing enough and that leadership doesn't get elected next time around. Also they are still a bully in world opinion just because they use a helicopter against a militiaman. "So unfair!"
- Israel doesn't do anything. Israeli's die and property is damaged. The attackers win a political and morale victory and the current Israeli leadership isn't elected next time around.
- Israel gives up 'conquered' territory. Insurgents move up into 'surrendered territory' which is what it will be called by both sides, and continues attacks. Israeli's die and property is damaged. The attackers win a political and morale victory and the current Israeli leadership isn't elected next time around, and if they want the territory back it must be 're-conquered' and the UN will scream bloody murder again.

[Raellus]

Israel is pretty much in a no win situation.
- It defends itself against rocket attacks with wide scale military action it is branded by the world as a bully
- It defends itself against rocket attacks with a 'measured response' and Israelis say they aren't doing enough and that leadership doesn't get elected next time around. Also they are still a bully in world opinion just because they use a helicopter against a militiaman. "So unfair!"
- Israel doesn't do anything. Israeli's die and property is damaged. The attackers win a political and morale victory and the current Israeli leadership isn't elected next time around.
- Israel gives up 'conquered' territory. Insurgents move up into 'surrendered territory' which is what it will be called by both sides, and continues attacks. Israeli's die and property is damaged. The attackers win a political and morale victory and the current Israeli leadership isn't elected next time around, and if they want the territory back it must be 're-conquered' and the UN will scream bloody murder again.

A great summary of Israel's current quandary, Haven. I couldn't have put it any better myself.

No wonder no one's posted a solution to the HAMAS rocket attack problem. It's easier, I guess, just to say that it's not a problem...

[ChalkLine]

Actually, the answer to the problem has been posted several times;

- Stop victimising the Palestinians, give them liveable land, stop killing their police officers, stop blockading thier movement, stop cutting off their power, stop cutting off their water, etc etc.

The cause of the attacks is hatred. You can't get a military solution to hatred.

The IRA actually launched rockets, but you never saw the RAF bombing Belfast.

It has been posted over and over that the cause of all this is the treatment of the Palestinians, they have nothing to live for.

[Raellus]

Actually, the answer to the problem has been posted several times;

- Stop victimising the Palestinians, give them liveable land, stop killing their police officers, stop blockading thier movement, stop cutting off their power, stop cutting off their water, etc etc.

And then Hamas stops launching indescriminant rocket attacks against Israel

So if militant members of some oppressed minority segregated into "reservations" in your country started launching rockets into your town or city (or a town or city where your family and/or lives) you would respond by demanding that your government immediately give them what they want and not respond militarily

Once again, I agree with you on the long term solution but I find your support for Hamas baffling. If I was a Palestinian, I imagine I would be cursing and shaking my fist at the Israelis right now too. But, I think that I would also be cursing and shaking my fist at Hamas for provoking the Israelis and trying to court civilian casualties by hiding behind their own people.

"Hey, guys in ski masks! Stop launching those rockets at Israel, will you It doesn't seem to be doing any of us any good at all!"

Hamas came to power due to its militant (some would say extremist) stand against Israel. Yes, they have popular support. Does that make their actions justifiable Hamas knows that they stand to lose political power if peace ever comes to the region and that's why they will not allow it to happen. I suspect that's the main reason why Hamas decided not to renew the original cease-fire and instead, immediately renewed its indiscriminant rocket attacks against Israel. I understand why some Palestinians support violent means of protest but why educated third party observers try to defend blatant terrorist acts is beyond me.

It is troubling that people don't seem to have much of a problem with Israeli civilians getting blown up (after all, it's their fault; it's only a few of them, etc...) but are so incensed at Palestinian civilian casualties.

[ChalkLine]

Actually, I categorically do not support Hamas. I just don't have the somewhat stereotypical view that is handed out by the mass media (and I'm not inferring you do). I understand why Hamas is popular, and it distresses me that the side with the most to gain; Israel, creates (don't forget Hamas was originally funded by Israel to undermine Fatah) and then bolsters through their actions groups like this. Israel is capable of being proactive, the Palestinians as a people are not. Because of the conditions imposed on them they are almost entirely reactive.As I said, Hamas is a symptom, not an illness.

Like Hezbollah, Hamas is a group that is not just a resistance organisation. It is also a social groupment, a charity, a service and utility provider and a religious group. To state, as is often said in the commercial media, 'Hamas hides behind civilians' is purposefully wrong and purposefully misleading. Hamas is civilian, the majority of its fighters are ex-PA security forces, but also have a primarily civilian function. They don't sit around all day polishing their AKs. This intertwining of the military, paramilitary and non-military is well understood as a side-effect of the collapsed condition of society on the West Bank and Gaza, but a simplistic view is expounded to make them easy black-and-white foes.

A group such as Hamas is best destroyed by removing its reason for being. I endorse any method of undermining Hamas by bettering the lives of Palestinians, and I suggest that this would automatically better the lives of their Israeli neighbours as more working men would be supporting families and not throwing their lives away against the IDF or the civilians they shield.

Realistically, it was Israel just as much or arguably more who acted in bad faith. Hamas could not renew the cease-fire with the blockade killing the people by degrees, it was against their reason for being. If Israel had relaxed the blockade and allowed humanitarian aid back into Gaza, allowed food, allowed power and allowed drinking water, only then could Hamas feel that both sides were dealing in good faith. Hamas is a very reactive organisation, it responds strongly, simply and predictably. I don't for a second believe that no one in Israel's ruling elite didn't think the rockets would start up again if they kept up the horrible blockade.

This is where I put the blame. The 'tough on Hamas' crowd are being macho for the upcoming election, and they know that if they keep throttling Gaza they can count on Hamas to start shooting off their stupid Quassams in a show of defiance, and have a cassus belli to be hardcore.

[Targan]

I don't support Hamas either. Quite the opposite. They are a bunch of murderous terrorists thugs and religious fanatics and I don't like either terrorists or religious fanatics of any persuasion. Just because I oppose the Israeli military killing large numbers of innocent civilians doesn't mean I support Hamas.