T2K Today

[headquarters]

solution

Israel is in a though spot -Palistinians are living in hell.

My humble opinion is that rather than give the Palistinians something to fight and die for ( i.e a cause/ against the brutal oppression ) the powers that be ( we all know who is on that list ) should give them something to live for -a prosperous and viable society and nation state.

In a somewhat similar case :I remember my reaction when I read the figures for the cost of the campaign against Jugo forces in Kosovo and Serbia and the funding allocated for rebuilding and aid .The war had gotten more than 100 times the cash the rebuilding had 3 years later.How is that for strategy ..

The US knew what to do after 45 - helping Europe rebuilding their economies.Thats what is gotta happen with the next wars to -otherwise there is no end .

Yeah.

I know it is a bit hopeful ,but the other way has been tried for decades now and I believe that the military operations costs way more than reconstruction will -especially in said area .


Towards the end - I go with Grimace who said : keep it civil. Its not bad now , but you know - middle east is a topic that easily sparks of into something bad .

[Mohoender]

No one is supporting Hamas

I have seen that this came on the spot but I agree with Chalkline and Targan, no one is supporting Hamas around here.

I have said that we avoided a genocide and I had good reason to say that even as it was slightly overstated. Just look at the figures given in the press (I know they are unreliable but they are what we have know). During the first three days of the offensive (as the world was still looking away) almost 400 Palestinians (mostly civilians) had been killed and 1300 had been wounded. Today (after 6 more days of fighting), 100 more Palestinians (mostly militia) had been killed and about 400 more wounded (strangely I bet that they are mostly militia as well). So, by the way, Targan talking about it has some purpose and it changes things as it forces leaders to get some sense of measure. I don't know what the true translation of it is in English but in French we use to say that "the worse is when people of good remain silent". I 'm not saying that the israelis would approve a genocide but they could have comit one by simply going too far, porbably trying to avoid their own casualties: no israeli soldiers had been hit during the first three days, 1 has been killed and 30 wounded since the ground attack started.

Raellus you asked if the Israeli government should have remained idle. Of course, the answer is NO. However, someone compare that to the situation in Northern Ireland and that might be a very good comparison indeed. Here in France, the Jewish representative council (not the Jews themselves) keep saying that no country would have endured what Israel did endure for 8 years without moving. I realize that it is false as England endured it for almost 50 years (including the bloody sunday of 1972). The British (no matter how brutal some might have been) never responded by an all out offensive on civilians. Else, when the second intifada started in 2000 (I think) many Jews who had survived the Nazis and the camps demonstrated in the streets. They were not demonstrating in support of Israel but with Palestinians in support of the Palestinian population (the POPULATION, not the Fatah or the Hamas). They were given very little audience but one of them compared what was happening in Israel to what the Nazi did to the jews during WWII (not talking of the holocaust of course but thinking of privation, yellow stars...). I don't think that anyone can qualify survivors of the Shoah to be supportive of terrorism.

Are there some other ways. Obviously YES and that is true even with terrorism around. Rabin proved it until he was killed (by a Jew). The task was far from over but things were under way and terrorism (if still very active) was more fledgeling than it is now. Of course, Hamas is a terrorist movements but we are talking to terrorist all the time and that doesn't always matter that much. In that case it sounds more and more as a false excuse used by both side: "we are not talking to Palestinians they are terrorists, we are not talking to Israeli's they are bombing us and assassinating our leaders, we are not talking to Palestinians they are throwing rockets, we are ending the cease fire the Israelis are not leveling the blocus...", and in the meantime kids, women, and men from both sides are killed almost everyday with no future to look at.

Again, as I said, it's easy to say from behind a computer desk. I also agree with Grim,we had said it all and it's time to go away from that subject. Let's now hope that it will end soon and that, at some point, a few among the Israelis and Palestinians will be brave enough to end this needless bloodshed.

[Snake Eyes]

Part of me wishes they'd all hurry it up over there and just go ahead and drag us full on into WWIII so we can get on with the whole anti-christ/rapture "end of days" thing. I've grown weary of waiting for that other shoe to drop. You know - just to be contrary.

[Haven]

Since no one has really laid out a plan for Peace.

I like this article.

Course it doesn't really deal with the here and now....

http://www.newsweek.com/id/177840

[Snake Eyes]

I kind of liked Jack Ryan's plan as enumerated in Tom Clancy's The Sum of All Fears - turn policing of the Holy Land over the the Swiss Guard and park an armored cav regiment, an air wing, and a carrier battle group there to give them some teeth. Naive, but tidy.

[headquarters]

Just to get on a lighter note

I know its dreadful -all of it .

All those people down there held hostage and prisoners top leaders and policies that are selfserving and wicked.I got kids - it really tears me up to see the pictures.

So here

http://www.hamas.no/hamas/index.php

a Norwegian company that deal in farming equipment -nothing to do with the midleeast WHATSOEVER -but just the name ...

[Mohoender]

Gas cut from Russia

Increasing problem with Gas coming from Russia. We all know that Russia cut the gas to Ukraine on January 2. Today, the quantity of gas delivered to the EU has dropped also. It is cut to Southern Europe and Turkey. Poland recieved only 15% of it. France received only 30%...

So far it is unclear who does what between Ukraine and Russia. Ukraine claims that Russia reduced its deliveries to Europe. Russia claims that Ukraine cut three out of the four gazoduc on its soil.

As Europe is currently experiencing a cold period that might quickly become a true problem. Anyway, it's good for our imagination.

[headquarters]

cash flow problem

Increasing problem with Gas coming from Russia. We all know that Russia cut the gas to Ukraine on January 2. Today, the quantity of gas delivered to the EU has dropped also. It is cut to Southern Europe and Turkey. Poland recieved only 15% of it. France received only 30%...

So far it is unclear who does what between Ukraine and Russia. Ukraine claims that Russia reduced its deliveries to Europe. Russia claims that Ukraine cut three out of the four gazoduc on its soil.

As Europe is currently experiencing a cold period that might quickly become a true problem. Anyway, it's good for our imagination.

Moscow might be having a cashflow problem , and this i sa way of securing the necessary loans or extensions of payment or whatever...

It could also be a continuation of the good old "bash the Ukranians and give Nato the finger while doing it -cause we can just turn of th ef***ing gas and then what are you going to do" -

realpolitik in other words.

I predict Sarkozy will be on television in less than a week if th ecold continues and state that the overtures from NATO /OTAN to Ukraine were premature and part of the failed policies of the Bush administration ..

.." bien sur..we `ave no-thing to do over there -ce la playground les Ruskis.."

Who could blame him .

Not us -we have all the gas we need ,thats why the Russians are flying all sorts of sorties along our borders and simulating nuclear missile attacks with old bombers against our cities-breaking of JUST before the incursion gets grave enough that our leaders actually would have to try an put something behind ourt lame and feeble protests to Moscow.

It is clear that the US and Russia arnt in the same league -but Russia is strong enough now ,that messing with them in any way is political madness-and Washington knows it .

NATO will not expand eastwards for the next couple of decades imho.

h for humble as always.

[Mohoender]

I predict Sarkozy will be on television in less than a week if th ecold continues and state that the overtures from NATO /OTAN to Ukraine were premature and part of the failed policies of the Bush administration ..

I agree with everything you say but I was not thinking of real life. About Sarko don't worry about him you already won your bet two or three time. Sarkozete is on TV about every week, he is our national muppet right now (of course everyone understood that I'm not very supportive of him ).

My problem is that he is moving a lot but I still don't have the feeling that he is really doing anything new or anything at all. Oops, I'm wrong he betrayed the constitution at least once and escaped his responsibilties as leader of the state at least once also. I msu give him credit for two things so: he made me read our constitution and made me care about what is going on in Politics. I get the funny feeling that I'm not the only one in that case and ,right now, what worries me the most is the fact that the French are not complaining anymore.

Currently he is gesticulating in the Middle East so he can argue that he is doing something. First, he better hurry, within twelve days he won't be the most interesting "people" on TV anymore. I just have a question, then. Where was he between June and December He had access to all the reports from the UN (you know the one that are available to all) plus a few other I guess. What is funny is that he became president of EU almost right when the truce between Hamas and Israel came into effect. Saddly he had not care about it at all. Right, he had already too much at hand with Tibet, playing Chinese Poker and going to the Olympics (Plus, later, Russia and the financial crisis). Still, he could have cared a little in July but I guess that these peoples wouldn't have fit well on TV (after all, they were not dying under bombs and rockets, depending on what side you are talking of, and he was simply in a position to attempt something to avoid the current situation, why would he have done anything then).

Please, to all Americans, couldn't you hurry things a bit (change that transition period dating back to the civil war may be). I'm not Obamaniak but at least it will distract the world a bit and I'll be happy to see a new face on TV. After all, there is a 50/50 chance that he may be good, and at least he will be new. Moreover, he is good looking and doesn't look like a mix between Frankenstein and an Hungarian frog.

[Marc]

Ah Mohoender!
Your Sarkozete would be an excellent NPC... I will try to think about his statistics later...

[Mohoender]

Ah Mohoender!
Your Sarkozete would be an excellent NPC... I will try to think about his statistics later...

LOOOL

[headquarters]

oopss.

politics history thread spilled over into this one ..

Well at least maybe what I said could be used to make a case for a scenario where the "little games" like gas ,ukraine,georgia and increasing Russian ruthlessness in foreign politics sparks of a situation where things "get out of hand " and the world gets dragged into another big war .

[pmulcahy11b]

Well, I don't support Sarkozy -- but I'll take Carla Bruni...

As for not supporting the Constitution, Bush has everyone beat (except maybe Dick Cheney). Bush probably has rolls of toilet paper in the White House residence printed with the Constitution.

[Mohoender]

Well, I don't support Sarkozy -- but I'll take Carla Bruni...

As for not supporting the Constitution, Bush has everyone beat (except maybe Dick Cheney). Bush probably has rolls of toilet paper in the White House residence printed with the Constitution.

Ok for Carla Bruni but you'll need to be very very rich. Her main advantage is that you can hear distant sounds when she is singing. Plus you'll have to throw your kids out if you have some (She is exactly what you called a slut when you were at school). To her credit she has never hided that and it is not a problem in France. It might be for our president so. Moreover, if Sarko's ever visit US and If I was Barack's wife, I'll be checking hard on my husband.

I agree with you on Bush but it seems to me that you fix it somehow (better late than never). Sarko ruling over my country I don't find that to be anything lighter.

Oops, now, I agree we are going into Politics but, after all, with Sarko I can't help it. Moreover, the gas issue with Russia is an interesting one. The EU presidency made a declaration when it seem to be ordering Russia to deliver gas (press released). I don't know to what extend this is true but as Russia is still the owner of its gas, I can imagine plenty of diplomatic possibilities out of this.

[Marc]

About the gas conflict between Rossia and Ukra-na, both countries take profit from the lowering in the gas supply to the rest of Europe. Rossia is remembering to Europe our dependence an important energy source suplied for them. A good probe to check the european reaction. And Ukra-na is pressuring the rest of Europe, blaming the russians as the unique cause of the problem and insinuating that any other european country could have the same problem in the future. Wich is essentially true.

Anyway it's strange to realize how quickly are forgotten by Western Europe any strategic considerations after a short period without tension with Russia