Mexican Army Equipment 1995

[ArmySGT.]

So somehow Mexico has produced the assets......

Refined fuels in the 100,000s of thousands of gallons per day to support three or more Corps level armored thrusts.

Generated Corps level Supply, Maintenance, Refuel, and Transportation Battalions. A ratio of 10 support troops to one combat arms that goes up to 15 to 1, and 25 to 1 the more sophisticated the equipment.

Generated several Corps of garrison troops to occupy a few million miles of occupied territory comprising the American southwest.

Generated the rations to support troops in occupied territory.

Overwhelmed the U.S. forces on Active duty throughout the U.S. southwest and lower central united states.

Ft. Huachucha, Ft Bliss, Ft Hood, Ft Sill, Ft Carson, White Sands Missile Range, Toole Army Depot, 29 Palms, NTC ..... Air Force assets like Nellis Air Force base (where air dropped nuclear weapons) any of which fully supports National Guard and multi service and joint service full spectrum training.

A force which in peace time dwarfs the Mexican armed forces in just personnel.

There is no logical reason the Mexican army could gain a foot hold past Interstate 10 regardless of the number of drug traffickers and human smugglers assisting them.

The situation is the way the authors wanted the situation to be because a United States locked in a chaotic internal strife was and is great story material.

[Raellus]

@Swag: A narco-puppet state is a really interesting concept. I was going with a more left-leaning PRI administration irked by U.S. border/immigration/trade policy but I kind of like your scenario better. Any offensive by a narco-puppet would instantly benefit from established smuggling routes and distribution cells.

@Web: I also like your idea of setting up shop to license-build light AFVs for the China market.

@Olefin: In the scenario I posited, the Mexicans purchased Chicom armor prior to the Second Sino-Soviet war. And I agree with you that heavy armor isn't needed to explain/justify the Mexican army's early successes. IMHO, it just makes the setting more interesting. Also, IRL, the Mexicans did have some first-hand experience manufacturing tracked AFVs in the form of the short-lived Sedena-Henschel HWK-11s. It's not too far a stretch to take a reverse-engineered ERC-90 turret and slap it on there. That said, I prefer theidea of Mexico license-building Brazilian EE-T1 Osorio MBTs or Argentinian TAMs to Chicom or Russian equivalents.

@ArmySGT: It's about making it work. Yeah it's implausible, but it's not impossible. Timing the invasion after the TDM, when most regular U.S. army and guard units are already deployed on foreign soil, it doesn't seem all that crazy to see a Cuban/Soviet-supported Mexican invasion of the American SW having some success, at least early on. It certainly makes for an interesting campaign setting.

[Webstral]

To be sure, there are obstacles to be overcome in getting tank production going in Mexico starting in 1995 with the first tanks rolling off the line less than 2 years later"quite serious obstacles. Success depends a good deal on political will and what resources can be brought to bear. I posit this development less because I think its very likely than to provide a pretext for suspension of or lessening of disbelief regarding the Second Mexican-American War"an event that never took place within the context of a bigger war that never took place. Either we rewrite the shape of things pertaining to this particular portion of the Twilight: 2000 chronology (a perfectly acceptable option for those inclined to go that route) or we try to jiggle and/or shape pieces that dont fit together until they do. I belong to the latter school, though in truth Ive used a combination of approaches in my work.

[Legbreaker]

I don't think we need to worry about the HOW of it. No player will ever see the full extent of what's going on, not even everything within eyeball range. If they do start asking questions and actively investigating IC, then throw a few tidbits of information that way which might explain one portion of the whole, but leaves them completely ignorant about the rest.

Who here has ever had a gaming group stay together long enough for several years IC to pass Shouldn't it be the GMs job to keep the world they're playing in interesting - ie mysterious

Yes, GMs should have an overall understanding, but don't sweat about the minute detail of it. Just wing it, or only develop those small pieces of the puzzle you need to as, when, and especially IF the PCs ever find themselves in a position to actually find out the truth of anything.

Don't over analyse, and above all, K.I.S.S.

[LT. Ox]

A Game

Just my take.
Each of us brings his or her own set of learned information to the game WE play at OUR table. That makes it personal and I think it brings out the desire to justify to others the how and why of OUR game.
My game is played with my background and all that I have experienced and learned put into play. I have been a soldier and a Cop a Machinist and a salesman, a teacher and a Boy Scout leader. I have lived in California and Louisiana and Colorado and spent time in Viet Nam and Africa an ad couple of other areas that have seen shooting. I bring that to MY game. So here is the point, when you tell others how such and such IS or how it must be perhaps you should remember that is the case in your world., after all it has not really happened.
I posted a means to remove a perceived threat by improvised methods, I have never done that but I am sure that it is possible, given a particular set of circumstances, and a bit of luck. I have read any number of similar posts here about what Might be, given a particular set of what if circumstances, most are very reasonable to me under the circumstances put forth, all are, in the minds of those that posted them.
I think the folks that posted them should be aware that by posting you are inviting a discussion of those thoughts and scenarios. On the other hand discussion is not personal attack and I have not read anything here that indicates those posting are not aware of and very competent in the use of the English language, in other words saying I did not mean to insult or belittle another just will not fly.
Oh well my two cents again.
Carry On

[Legbreaker]

Well said, and a small detail that is overlooked by a few.

[Olefin]

FYI

One way you could have Mexico have MBT's would also fit right into those who love Red Dawn type scenarios and Harold Coyle books, which you can clearly see in the Texas module - how about they get them from Nicaragua, either with Nicaraguans manning them or just buying them

The Soviets delivered 20 T-54's and 136 T-55's to Nicaragua and 22 PT-76B's and considering the time frame of the game they should still be fully operational.

Thats a lot of potential armor for Mexico - and better yet, since Cuba operates those vehicles as well they could have bought parts for them from Cuba.

So lets say they buy 120 of them from Nicaragua in late 1997 as planning begins for the invasion - they can be delivered very easily and the spares come from Cuba as well as Nicaragua. They use Nicaraugan and Soviet trainers to get their guys up to speed and organize them into three 40 tank battalions and assign one to each army going into the US.

Or they use Soviet Division Cuba for tank support in Texas and put one battalion going into Arizona and two going into California.

Bingo - instant MBT's for the Mexican Army - and a great way to bring the Nicaraguans possibly into the invasion for those who want to do Red Dawn.

Raellus FYI- the Henschel HWK-11s were all manufactured and plant shut down by 1966. I highly doubt by 1996 that many of those workers and techs are even alive, let alone able to assist in getting a MBT plant up and running.

Again I dont see them making MBT's in Mexico - but don't underestimate the ERC-90, especially the improved version. The French have been very successfully using it as a light tank for a long time - and given the nature of what the invasion would be like they could be very very effective as tanks.

I would hate to be a National Guard commander that got issued a few M48's out of storage having to go up against a force of ERC-90 Sagaies.

And for the record - I would totally be in agreement on Mexico getting licensed to make the ERC-90 Lynx or Sagaies and increasing their number of them significantly prior to the invasion - they already have 120 of them and almost 20 years of experience operating them - and for Mexico it makes just about the perfect AFV

And making that kind of vehicle fits perfectly with their past abilities to make the HWK-11 - and also provides a hell of a scenario for players

I.e. you get tasked to get into Mexico and blow up that plant, which is being used to repair damaged vehicles and is still turning out a few new ones from time to time using existing stockpiled parts

and maybe even grab a couple for the players to use while they are at it

[Olefin]

So somehow Mexico has produced the assets......

Refined fuels in the 100,000s of thousands of gallons per day to support three or more Corps level armored thrusts.

Generated Corps level Supply, Maintenance, Refuel, and Transportation Battalions. A ratio of 10 support troops to one combat arms that goes up to 15 to 1, and 25 to 1 the more sophisticated the equipment.

Generated several Corps of garrison troops to occupy a few million miles of occupied territory comprising the American southwest.

Generated the rations to support troops in occupied territory.

Overwhelmed the U.S. forces on Active duty throughout the U.S. southwest and lower central united states.

Ft. Huachucha, Ft Bliss, Ft Hood, Ft Sill, Ft Carson, White Sands Missile Range, Toole Army Depot, 29 Palms, NTC ..... Air Force assets like Nellis Air Force base (where air dropped nuclear weapons) any of which fully supports National Guard and multi service and joint service full spectrum training.

A force which in peace time dwarfs the Mexican armed forces in just personnel.

There is no logical reason the Mexican army could gain a foot hold past Interstate 10 regardless of the number of drug traffickers and human smugglers assisting them.

The situation is the way the authors wanted the situation to be because a United States locked in a chaotic internal strife was and is great story material.

So you know ArmySgt I agree with many of your points - and you can see that Fort Bliss really held them up - it was one of the main places their invasion bogged down while the School Brigade held them up - and also shows how they probably didnt have MBT's - because while AA weapons can really do the job on APC's and armored cars they wont do much against an MBT - if they had those they should have just rolled right over Bliss

and also looking at their stop point in the invasion I am betting that they never took 29 Palms - that given the fight the Marines would have given them for Pendleton that by 29 Palms they would have been running out of steam and they got stopped dead just north of Palm Springs

And the 49th is at Fort Sill so they never got there

You have to wonder how many troops were still at those facilities - the Marines have basically sent everyone they had overseas except trainers and logistics troops, the Navy doesnt train its guys for ground combat (thats what the Marines are for), and many of the Air Force bases would be down to minimal personnel with the deployments overseas

But Sill and Bliss definitely would have been very hard nuts to crack with the schools there - and no matter what types of Marines are at 29 Palms and Pendleton as to combat or logistics and training formations, all Marines are riflemen first and foremost - they wouldnt have given up those bases without one hell of a fight

[Legbreaker]

Just because a unit is listed as being in a certain location, doesn't mean they spent the whole war there.

[Olefin]

No I dont mean the 49th spent the whole war at Sill- the Mexicans never made it to Fort Sill - i.e. per canon they got stopped in Texas - and the Army Guide and HW (if you use it) has them at Fort Sill after they were brought back to Texas, headed up the 1999 counteroffensive and got their butts kicked by the Soviets

[swaghauler]

@Swag: A narco-puppet state is a really interesting concept. I was going with a more left-leaning PRI administration irked by U.S. border/immigration/trade policy but I kind of like your scenario better. Any offensive by a narco-puppet would instantly benefit from established smuggling routes and distribution cells.

@Web: I also like your idea of setting up shop to license-build light AFVs for the China market.

@Olefin: In the scenario I posited, the Mexicans purchased Chicom armor prior to the Second Sino-Soviet war. And I agree with you that heavy armor isn't needed to explain/justify the Mexican army's early successes. IMHO, it just makes the setting more interesting. Also, IRL, the Mexicans did have some first-hand experience manufacturing tracked AFVs in the form of the short-lived Sedena-Henschel HWK-11s. It's not too far a stretch to take a reverse-engineered ERC-90 turret and slap it on there. That said, I prefer theidea of Mexico license-building Brazilian EE-T1 Osorio MBTs or Argentinian TAMs to Chicom or Russian equivalents.

@ArmySGT: It's about making it work. Yeah it's implausible, but it's not impossible. Timing the invasion after the TDM, when most regular U.S. army and guard units are already deployed on foreign soil, it doesn't seem all that crazy to see a Cuban/Soviet-supported Mexican invasion of the American SW having some success, at least early on. It certainly makes for an interesting campaign setting.

Keep in mind that under the narco-puppet state idea, they could be buying weapons from anyone who's selling. In fact, if the US is "distracted" from South America; One has to wonder how many countries like Guatemala, Nicaragua, Panama, and Bolivia would "fall under the influence" of the Cartels wielding Russian heavy weapons and using Russian "advisers"
I would however change the cannon if you pursue this. I would say that Mexico's oil wells would not have been nuked by Russia and that platforms owned by the now "hostile" Mexico were occupied by the US military "to prevent Russian use of Mexican oil in the war" (triggering the Mexican military response on US soil).

[ArmySGT.]

@ArmySGT: It's about making it work. Yeah it's implausible, but it's not impossible. Timing the invasion after the TDM, when most regular U.S. army and guard units are already deployed on foreign soil, it doesn't seem all that crazy to see a Cuban/Soviet-supported Mexican invasion of the American SW having some success, at least early on. It certainly makes for an interesting campaign setting.

Where this falls apart is....... What use is Brownsville The east gulf coast is where the refineries and ports are. Where they going to link up and take a honeymoon road trip along the Texas coast

[Raellus]

Where this falls apart is....... What use is Brownsville The east gulf coast is where the refineries and ports are. Where they going to link up and take a honeymoon road trip along the Texas coast

OK. As GM/steward of your own T2KU, change it or leave it out. I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking.

[ArmySGT.]

Ok.....

I was trying to discuss the T2K game universe....

I remember now why I quit before.

You guys can have it.

I am tired of these temper tantrums .

Don't call. I'll be over on the TMP side.

[Targan]

Don't call. I'll be over on the TMP side.

Please stay.