Mexican Army Equipment 1995

[rcaf_777]

I am wondering how the war effects the border situation. I mean the US is going to be manufacturing loads of war material and they are going need manpower, would you see lots people of Mexico or the Central America trying to cross and find work if the war industry is need would the authorites turn more of blind eye Would you see Mexicans in the the US Military

[Legbreaker]

Would you see Mexicans in the the US Military

Well there's a recipe for disaster!
I'd imagine that recruiting from the Mexican population would likely cease, or at least slow down the moment an unfriendly government was installed in Mexico. Those who were recruited are sure to have been shipped as quickly and as far away from south western US as possible, probably to Europe or the middle east (Korea is also a possibility, but that would probably entail them leaving from California or parts nearby and might be seen as a bit risky).
Bound to be screams of racism once the pattern was observed, but hey, it's WWIII, those protests are getting shut down hard!

[Olefin]

You know you will see them - and keep in mind that the US is also at war with Italy and Greece - but I highly doubt that the US Army would suddenly not take Italian and Greek Americans as soldiers

During WWII my uncle Charlie served in the US Army starting in 1942 - he had lived in this country for nearly 22 years (he was 31 at the time) but had never officially become a US citizen (he was born in Italy) - however he was inducted and served at a time when the US was at war with Italy

[pmulcahy11b]

You know you will see them - and keep in mind that the US is also at war with Italy and Greece - but I highly doubt that the US Army would suddenly not take Italian and Greek Americans as soldiers

During WWII my uncle Charlie served in the US Army starting in 1942 - he had lived in this country for nearly 22 years (he was 31 at the time) but had never officially become a US citizen (he was born in Italy) - however he was inducted and served at a time when the US was at war with Italy

Did they give him and his family (assuming he was married) a simplified road to citizenship Today, the US military will (usually) help a servicemember and his family all they can.

[Targan]

Did they give him and his family (assuming he was married) a simplified road to citizenship Today, the US military will (usually) help a servicemember and his family all they can.

I was a New Zealand citizen when I joined the Australian Army Reserve. They fast tracked my citizenship - it was literally just a couple of weeks and I received my citizenship certificate.

[Legbreaker]

I was a New Zealand citizen when I joined the Australian Army Reserve. They fast tracked my citizenship - it was literally just a couple of weeks and I received my citizenship certificate.

Somebody obviously screwed up and put you on the wrong list. I'm SURE you were supposed to be immediately deported!

[Targan]

Somebody obviously screwed up and put you on the wrong list. I'm SURE you were supposed to be immediately deported!

Yeah, well 20/20 hindsight and all that

[Olefin]

Did they give him and his family (assuming he was married) a simplified road to citizenship Today, the US military will (usually) help a service member and his family all they can.

actually they did - he became a citizen during the war (and unfortunately a POW of the Germans as well after the Bulge - which is why he always hated Hogans Heroes with a passion)

[.45cultist]

Did they give him and his family (assuming he was married) a simplified road to citizenship Today, the US military will (usually) help a service member and his family all they can.

The actor Mako played Japanese soldiers, but served in the U.S. Army during Korea. His parents were college professors who were in the U.S. during the war and served as translators for Navy Intelligence. His family got citizenship from congress in recognition of their aid and he reunited with them.

[Webstral]

FYI

One way you could have Mexico have MBT's would also fit right into those who love Red Dawn type scenarios and Harold Coyle books, which you can clearly see in the Texas module - how about they get them from Nicaragua, either with Nicaraguans manning them or just buying them

The Soviets delivered 20 T-54's and 136 T-55's to Nicaragua and 22 PT-76B's and considering the time frame of the game they should still be fully operational.

Thats a lot of potential armor for Mexico - and better yet, since Cuba operates those vehicles as well they could have bought parts for them from Cuba.

So lets say they buy 120 of them from Nicaragua in late 1997 as planning begins for the invasion - they can be delivered very easily and the spares come from Cuba as well as Nicaragua. They use Nicaraugan and Soviet trainers to get their guys up to speed and organize them into three 40 tank battalions and assign one to each army going into the US.

Or they use Soviet Division Cuba for tank support in Texas and put one battalion going into Arizona and two going into California.

Bingo - instant MBT's for the Mexican Army - and a great way to bring the Nicaraguans possibly into the invasion for those who want to do Red Dawn.

Raellus FYI- the Henschel HWK-11s were all manufactured and plant shut down by 1966. I highly doubt by 1996 that many of those workers and techs are even alive, let alone able to assist in getting a MBT plant up and running.

Again I dont see them making MBT's in Mexico - but don't underestimate the ERC-90, especially the improved version. The French have been very successfully using it as a light tank for a long time - and given the nature of what the invasion would be like they could be very very effective as tanks.

And for the record - I would totally be in agreement on Mexico getting licensed to make the ERC-90 Lynx or Sagaies and increasing their number of them significantly prior to the invasion - they already have 120 of them and almost 20 years of experience operating them - and for Mexico it makes just about the perfect AFV

Some interesting ideas there. Without giving up on the idea of having Mexico build AMX-30 under license, Im willing to explore the idea of acquiring tanks from other sources and the idea of boosting numbers of Lynxes. Certainly, they would be purchased by China if the AMX-30 is going to be purchased by China.


Before agreeing that the Lynx can do the job of supporting a Mexican thrust into the US, I would want to figure out how Second Mexican Army deals with a counterattack by 40th Infantry Division. The division draws a number of MBT when it reforms. The M60 outranges and outguns the Lynx and has better protection. The M1 is even more so. Conventional wisdom says that any encounter between American MBT and the Lynx is going to be as lop-sided as the Operation Desert Storm. Its hard to imagine that the Americans make no serious effort to expel the Mexicans from Southern California. Yet the disposition of forces in July 2000 indicates that either there was no real effort or that the Americans failed. This needs some explanation. Or a rationale for the Americans making no effort has to be devised. Im at a loss in this regard thus far, though Id welcome some ideas to get me thinking.

[Olefin]

one question would be how does the 40th counterattacks - and how much armor they ever got - it sure looks like from the various vehicles they have that they didnt get much armor when the time came to reorganized the division in the US - they have a wide variety including CEV's as tanks

so while they may have got better tanks how many did they get Is this a WWII situation for the 40th - i.e. the Germans had better tanks than the Americans but a heck of a lot less than the US did - so were the few better MBT's that they got overwhelmed by larger numbers of Mexican armored cars - (i.e. its one thing if they got 100 tanks, a much different thing if they only got 25)

or did the 40th get cocky and do something stupid - i.e. the Mexican stuff is junk why the hell should we care - and get themselves ambushed by ERC-90's at effective range I could easily see the Mexican's getting one heck of a black eye in an opern field battle then sucking the 40th into where they could ambush them, either in an urban environment or other places that offer concealment - especially if the 40th didnt have any air support

in other words did the commander make the mistake the Germans made in Stalingrad and let themselves get sucked into a tank battle in built up terrain

or you could have the Mexicans get the T-55's from Nicaragua (and maybe even some T-64's from Cuba as well) and concentrate them all in CA - now they have a mix of ERC'90's and Soviet MBT's and make a more effective force

I think the key may come down to how they fought the 40th - I can see the Soviets in Texas taking on the 49th in an open fight - after all they had helicopter gunships and for all we know the 49th didnt - but in CA maybe they relied on ambush tactics to get close enough to make their weapons able to effectively engage the US MBT's - losing a lot of vehicles in the process but still stopping the US in its drive south

[Webstral]

Where this falls apart is....... What use is Brownsville The east gulf coast is where the refineries and ports are. Where they going to link up and take a honeymoon road trip along the Texas coast

Whether Army SGT is still lurking or ever comes back, I think this question is worth answering. What is the strategic objective of the Mexican action The official reason"to save Mexican lives"is propaganda. The Mexican government would be glad to be rid of hungry mouths, many of whom will be First Nations people or malcontents fleeing ethnic cleansing and crackdowns at home in 1998. Some ordinary Mexicans obviously would be troubled by violence against Mexican nationals in the US.

I think there are a couple of plausible reasons, which I have explored previously. One reason is that a foreign adventure is good for distracting people from troubles at home. Another is that being seen to protect Mexican lives against those bad Americans cant hurt. Then theres the near certainty that Mexican oil refineries will be nuked by the Soviets to keep them out of American hands or by the French to make the Americans think the Soviets did it. The Soviets could play off nuking Mexican refineries as yet another act of Yankee imperialism. Knowing that Mexican oil would give Mexico a leg up in world, the Americans destroy Mexicos oil to keep Mexico down. And then theres the fact that 150 years prior the United States lopped off half of Mexico.

I think its quite possible that the Mexican senior leadership does not have a clear idea of what they are trying to achieve. Inflicting a defeat on the Americans obviously is a good thing. But what happens after the Mexican Army has won a few battles and captured some territory Where is the stop line In the short term, the foreign adventure is good for public morale. After a little while though, the absence of military units in the interior begins to cause problems on top of all the other problems the country is experiencing. What to do

While I agree that rationally there is little chance that Mexico would invade the US under the circumstances that exist in 1998, I like the invasion thematically. I recognize that it borders on a deus ex machina for the purpose of expanding the Twilight: 2000 war zone to a whole new territory. Still, I think theres an important theme at work. People do stupid things under stress. At many points in the chronology cooler heads might have prevailed and put an end to the war but didnt. The Twilight War as a whole could have been avoided. A Mexican invasion of the US for ill-defined objectives fits the theme of absurd wastefulness quite nicely.

[Olefin]

Well we know the Mexican refineries get nuked - and I doubt the US would do it (after all why not just invade and take them for themselves)

and I dont see the French doing it

but keep in mind that even with that fact it doesnt mean that the Mexican government would acknowledge that to the general populace - its just as easy to say "the gringos nuked us!" - after all its not like anyone is going to be able to prove who actually fired the missiles by mid 98

and with how badly the US was hit the Mexican government may have wondered what they had to lose in trying to get back what was once theirs or at least as much as they could

the problem is that there is only so much war fervor can do to distract people at home - and you are right about what would happen with too much of the Army bogged down in CA, AZ, NM and Texas and no way to get them home in time - 'viva la revolucion!"

[Webstral]

There are a lot of unknowns about the situation in California, which gives us leeway. We do know that 40th ID drew vehicles from a variety of sources. We dont know how many, so there is wiggle room there.

Its curious that according to US Army Vehicle Guide 40th Infantry Division is in central California. I would imagine that the surviving tanks would be in the southern part of US territory facing the enemy. The MPs would be better suited to policing the interior, including the all-important Central Valley. What does the presence of 40th ID in the interior tell us Granted, the 1999 counteroffensive is a year gone. From a Twilight: 2000 perspective, that campaign is ancient history.

When I have thought about this in the past, Ive imagined that the armor of 40th ID was handled incredibly carelessly and that the armor and anti-tank forces of the Mexicans were handled brilliantly. Perhaps the American leadership fell victim to hubris based on their imagined invincibility. How could a few Mexican armored cars hope to stand up against American MBT So it may well be that the Mexicans lured the striking power of 40th ID into a kill sack or found a way to turn the terrain decisively to Mexican advantage.

[Olefin]

keep in mind too what the 40th is protecting (and it shows the authors really didnt know the California that well)

The Soviets nukes the big refineries in the state and thus you cant get oil production out of LA or near San Francisco - but there are three smaller refineries in Kern County around Bakersfield - and those three refineries get their oil from the Kern oil fields around them - so that makes Bakersfield the last gas station in CA

so why is the 40th there To keep the Mexicans from getting that oil - and to keep it for MilGov

that could also explain why they didnt counterattack - the 40th could have been tasked with hold on in Bakersfield no matter what and stop the Mexicans dead if they try to grab the oil or the refineries


and thus the Mexican forces come on, get their heads handed to them by the 40th and draw back - and the 40th just stays put and makes sure that Bakersfield gets held

thats why HW doesnt make sense - you dont go thru all that trouble to hold Bakersfield and then withdraw - not when if you do there goes the last oil on the west coast