Australia in T2K (Long)

[Legbreaker]

There's just no way Australia would send troops to the middle east, certainly not in those numbers, and certainly not with a hostile Indonesia knocking on the door. MAY send a small training unit of perhaps 100 personnel, but that's about it.
As for oil, we have a bit of untapped reserves here ourselves. With the Soviets backing Iran, etc, and of course Indonesia and our Korean obligations, a third front is just plain unthinkable.
We have approximately the same population as Greece, which has conscription, a much smaller land area, and an army of 90,000 on active duty (plus 180,000 extra recalled conscripts in time of war). Australia has 45,000 including reservists.
In WWII, the military was rapidly expanded primarily because there was nothing left to stop the Japanese. The British which had been the main ally was tied down in Europe and Africa, and the US were nowhere to be seen. Virtually everyone we had sent to Africa and the middle east were hurriedly recalled after the fall of Singapore - the door was wide open and nobody else was around to close it. Those conscripted troops we did have were extremely poorly trained and very badly equipped. It's a miracle those thrown into the fire did as well as they did (I'm thinking the 39th Battalion and their role in stopping the Japanese in New Guinea).
Come WWIII you can bet the lessons learnt from WWII would not be forgotten. Australia would not over extend itself again.

[RN7]

AUSTRALIAN ARMY 2016

Army
Manpower: 29,000

Command

Division HQ (1st Division): Brisbane QLD

• Combat Training Centre: Tully QLD
• 1st Signal Regiment: Enoggera QLD
• 39th Operational Support Battalion: Sydney NSW
• 2/30th Training Group: RMAH Malaysia

Manoeuvre

1st Brigade: Darwin NT

• 1st Armoured Regiment: Darwin NT
• 5th Battalion RAR: Darwin NT
• 7th Battalion RAR: Edinburgh SA
• 8/12th RAA: Darwin NT
• 1st Combat Engineer Regiment: Darwin NT
• 1st Combat Signals Regiment: Darwin NT
• 1st Combat Support Battalion: Darwin NT

3rd Brigade: Townsville QLD

• 2nd Cavalry Regiment: Townsville QLD
• 1st Battalion RAR: Townsville QLD
• 2nd Battalion RAR (Amphibious trained): Townsville QLD
• 3rd Battalion RAR: Townsville QLD
• 4th RAA: Townsville QLD
• 3rd Combat Engineer Regiment: Townsville QLD
• 3rd Combat Signals Regiment: Townsville QLD
• 3rd Combat Support Battalion: Townsville QLD

7th Brigade: Enoggera QLD

• 2/14th Light Horse Regiment: Enoggera QLD
• 6th Battalion RAR: Enoggera QLD
• 8/9th Battalion RAR: Enoggera QLD
• 1st RAA: Enoggera QLD
• 2nd Combat Engineer Regiment: Enoggera QLD
• 7th Combat Signals Regiment: Enoggera QLD
• 7th Combat Support Battalion: Enoggera QLD

16th Aviation Brigade: Enoggera QLD

• 1st Aviation Regiment: Darwin NT
• 5th Aviation Regiment: Townsville QLD
• 6th Aviation Regiment: Sydney NSW

6th Combat Support Brigade: Sydney NSW

• 1st Intelligence Battalion: Sydney NSW
• 6th Engineer Support Regiment: Enoggera QLD
• 7th Signals Regiment: Cabarlha QLD
• 16th Air Land Regiment: Woodside SA
• 19th Chief Engineer Works: Sydney NSW
• 20th Surveillance & Target Acquisition Regiment: Enoggera QLD

17th Combat Support Brigade: Sydney NSW

• 17th Signal Regiment: Sydney NSW
• 2nd Forces Support Battalion (Reserve): Hobart TAS
• 9th Forces Support Battalion: RAAF Amberley QLD
• 10th Forces Support Battalion: Townsville QLD
• 1st Close Health Battalion: Sydney NSW
• 2nd General Health Battalion: Enoggera QLD
• 3rd Health Support Battalion (Reserve): Adelaide SA
• 1st Military Police Battalion: Sydney NSW
• 1st Psychology Unit: Sydney NSW

Special Operations Command

Special Operations Command HQ: Sydney NSW

• SAS Regiment: Perth WA
• 1st Commando Regiment (Reserve): Sydney NSW
• 2nd Commando Regiment: Holsworthy NSW
• Special Operations Engineer Regiment: Holsworthy NSW
• Special Operations Logistics Squadron: Sydney NSW
• Special Operations Training Centre: Singleton NSW
• Parachute Training School. Nowra NSW

Reserve Organisation
Manpower: 28,700 (including 12,500 Standby reserve)

Command

Division HQ (2nd Division): Sydney NSW

• 8th Signal Regiment: Sydney NSW
• 51st Battalion, Far North Queensland Regiment (Reserve): Cairns QLD
• North-West Mobile Force (Reserve): Larrakeyah NT
• The Pilbara Regiment (Reserve): Karratha WA

Manoeuvre

4th Brigade (Reserve): Melbourne VIC

• 4/19th Prince of Wales Light Horse Regiment: Melbourne VIC
• 5/6th Battalion RAR: Melbourne VIC
• 8/7th Battalion RAR: Ballarat VIC
• 2/10th Light Battery: Melbourne VIC
• 2nd Engineer Regiment: Melbourne VIC
• 108th Signals Squadron: Melbourne VIC
• 4th Combat Support Battalion: Melbourne VIC
• Melbourne University Regiment: Melbourne VIC

5th Brigade (Reserve): Sydney NSW

• 1/15th Royal NSW Lancers: Parramatta NSW
• 1/19th Battalion, Royal NSW Regiment: Orange NSW
• 4/3rd Battalion, Royal NSW Regiment: Cardiff NSW
• 23rd Light Battery: Sydney NSW
• 5th Engineer Regiment: Holsworthy NSW
• 142nd Signal Squadron: Sydney NSW
• 5th Combat Support Battalion: Sydney NSW
• Sydney University Regiment: Sydney NSW

8th Brigade (Reserve): Sydney NSW

• 12/16th Hunter River Lancers: Tamworth NSW
• 2/17th Battalion, Royal NSW Regiment: Sydney NSW
• 41st Battalion, Royal NSW Regiment: Lismore NSW
• 7th Light Battery: Sydney NSW
• 8th Engineer Regiment: Newcastle NSW
• 155th Signal Squadron: Sydney NSW
• 8th Combat Support Battalion: Sydney NSW
• University of New South Wales Regiment: Sydney NSW

9th Brigade (Reserve): Adelaide SA

• A Squadron. 3/9th SA Mounted Rifles: Adelaide SA
• 10/27th Battalion, Royal SA Regiment: Adelaide SA
• 12/40th Battalion, Royal TAS Regiment: Hobart TAS
• 6/13th Light Battery: Adelaide SA
• 3rd Field Squadron: Adelaide SA
• 144th Signal Squadron: Adelaide SA
• 9th Combat Support Battalion: Adelaide SA
• Adelaide University Regiment: Adelaide SA

11th Brigade (Reserve): Townsville QLD

• B Squadron. 3/4th Cavalry Regiment: Townsville QLD
• 9th Battalion, Royal QLD Regiment: Enoggera QLD
• 25/49th Battalion, Royal QLD Regiment: Enoggera QLD
• 31/42nd Battalion, Royal QLD Regiment: Townsville QLD
• 5/11th Light Battery: Townsville QLD
• 11th Engineer Regiment: Townsville QLD
• 141st Signal Squadron: Townsville QLD
• 11th Combat Support Battalion: Townsville QLD
• Queensland University Regiment: Brisbane QLD

13th Brigade (Reserve): Perth WA

• A Squadron. 10th Light Horse Regiment: Perth WA
• 11/28th Battalion, Royal WA Regiment: Perth WA
• 16th Battalion, Royal WA Regiment: Perth WA
• 3rd Light Battery: Perth WA
• 13th Field Squadron: Perth WA
• 109th Signal Squadron: Perth WA
• 13th Combat Support Squadron: Perth WA
• Western Australia Regiment: Fremantle WA

Other Army Establishments

• Army Recruitment Training Centre: Kapooka NSW
• Royal Military College: Canberra ACT
• Combined Arms Training Centre: Puckapunyal VIC
• Land Warfare Centre: Canungra QLD
• Army Logistics Training Centre: Bonegilla and Bandiana VIC
• Army Aviation Training Centre: Oakley QLD

Army Equipment
MBT: 59 M1A1 (possibly up to 90 Leopard 1A3 held in storage)
AIFV: 253 (253x ASLAV-25 all variants)
APC: 431 (431x M113AS4)
MRAP: 1,192 (1,052x Bushmaster, 31x Jackal, 12x Husky, 8x MV-10, 89x HMT Extenda II)
ART: 290 (54x M777A2 155mm, 36x M198 155mm, 112x L118/119 105mm, 188x 81mm Mortars)
ARV: 45 (15x ASLAV-F, 17x ASLAV-R, 13x M88A2)
VLB: 5 (5x Biber)
AT: Javelin MANPAT and 84mm Carl Gustav
SAM: 36 (36x RBS-70 MANPAD)
RADAR: 34 (3x Giraffe, 31x LCMR)

Army Aircraft
Attack Helicopter: 22 (22x Tiger)
Heavy Transport Helicopter: 11 (4x CH-57D, 7x CH-47F Chinooks)
Medium Transport Helicopter: 67 (33x NH-90, 34x S-70A Black Hawk) (* 8x NH-90 on order)
Light Helicopter: 30 (29x Bell OH-58 Kiowa, 1x EC-135) (* 14x EC-135 on order)
UAV: 10 (10x RQ-7B Shadow 200)


Abbreviations
ACT: Australian Capital Territory
NSW: New South Wales
NT: Northern Territory
QLD: Queensland
RAAF: Royal Australian Air Force
RAN: Royal Australian Navy
RAR: Royal Australian Regiment
RAA: Royal Australian Artillery
SA: South Australia
SAS: Special Air Service Regiment
TAS: Tasmania
VIC: Victoria
WA: Western Australia

[Legbreaker]

8th Brigade (Reserve): Sydney NSW

• 4th Battalion, Royal NSW Regiment: Lismore NSW

You should alter that to 41st Battalion. Probably just a typo I'm guessing.
It's also worth noting those locations are the HQ elements. Reserve units as a whole are usually spread over areas hundreds of miles across with companies, even individual platoons located in separate towns.

[RN7]

You should alter that to 41st Battalion. Probably just a typo I'm guessing.
It's also worth noting those locations are the HQ elements. Reserve units as a whole are usually spread over areas hundreds of miles across with companies, even individual platoons located in separate towns.

Thanks I missed that. The HQ's and most of the elements of the reserve brigades seem to be located within the suburbs, or near, major Australian cities. Tried to look for more geographical spatiality but everything seems to becoming more centralised, particularly in the populous South-East and in Western Australia. Maybe someone has other sources. Would make sense for mobilisation purposes to have forces closer together.

So what we have hear is the basis of three divisions organisationally on full mobilisation in 2016; one infantry and two reserve light infantry divisions, although the light infantry divisions would be more or less truly light infantry.

[Legbreaker]

Australia Reserve units are not in any shape or form close to combat ready. Yes, there are individuals who may be, but 95% of each unit needs a good 3 months (minimum) additional training.
Added to that most reserve units are staffed at only skeleton levels - the 41st for example (my original unit) could barely scrape together a company plus minimal support elements when it came to the annual exercise, and even then we were usually still operating with about 70-80% strength.
To bring these units up to full manpower will take time, and then more time to train the reinforcements. Mobilisation speed is not exactly a priority in that sort of situation...

What would happen is the unit as a whole would be called up to full time service, a process which would take a few days. The unit would then move to a dedicated training establishment such as the Infantry centre at Singleton just outside Newcastle in NSW. There they would absorb reinforcements and conduct intensive training for several months. Finally it's likely to be sent on a large scale exercise in terrain similar to that where they are expected to deploy, before at last being declared combat ready.

Note that the training establishments do not currently have the facilities to cater for large scale mobilisation of troops with Singleton as an example really only capable of handling about two battalions at a time with a sizeable proportion of the troops housed in tents when not out on the range. The facilities that do exist beyond normal peace time requirements consist mostly of buildings from WWII and Vietnam (ie riddled with asbestos).

[mpipes]

I think everyone is being far too pessimistic and conservative on what FULL mobilization of any country would look like. In the US Civil War, the Confederates essentially built a competent field army from scratch in six months. The US raised about 50 divisions in the first two years of WWII, and Russia was churning out a division in about 12 weeks in 1940-1941 and the Germans a division in roughly 8 weeks in 1944. In short, when you have to, you can churn out a division in just weeks; it may not be the best trained but all they really need to know is how to shoot and maneuver and men can be taught that in just weeks if need be.

If your just trying to get leg infantry, you can essentially build 12 divisions from 200K personnel in about 18 months easily as well as a good chunk of the vehicles to move them. That is from recruitment to a trained and functional division. A trained Airborne division takes about two years and a commando the same period of time. As for training facilities, well that's where the good old fashion tent comes in. After all, the training camps the US Marines established in New Zealand in WWII consisted of hundreds of tents.

For Australia and New Zealand the limiting factor is equipment. A draft will get the manpower fairly quickly. In 1990, Australia had a population of 17 million. A mobilization and draft to provide say 250,000 recruits to raise 15-20 divisions would hardly make a dent in the overall population. Additionally, every army in 1990 had mountains of equipment just waiting for an emergency. The AUG is far from a complicated weapon and its largely plastic components can be churned out by injection molding very rapidly and in great quantities. Furthermore with a major war going on in their backyard, New Zealand and Australia would have started mobilizing in 1995 almost as soon as the Soviets crossed the border into China with over a year of time to get a few divisions operational before the war started in earnest. Same for the US, England, and the rest of Europe. In my take on the situation, you had almost a full corps of Australian and New Zealand troops in Europe, at least two divisions in each of the middle East and China. Another 2-3 divisions available to deploy into Indonesian and/or the Philippines, and at least another two to keep at home.

[RN7]

Australia Reserve units are not in any shape or form close to combat ready. Yes, there are individuals who may be, but 95% of each unit needs a good 3 months (minimum) additional training.
Added to that most reserve units are staffed at only skeleton levels - the 41st for example (my original unit) could barely scrape together a company plus minimal support elements when it came to the annual exercise, and even then we were usually still operating with about 70-80% strength.
To bring these units up to full manpower will take time, and then more time to train the reinforcements. Mobilisation speed is not exactly a priority in that sort of situation...

What would happen is the unit as a whole would be called up to full time service, a process which would take a few days. The unit would then move to a dedicated training establishment such as the Infantry centre at Singleton just outside Newcastle in NSW. There they would absorb reinforcements and conduct intensive training for several months. Finally it's likely to be sent on a large scale exercise in terrain similar to that where they are expected to deploy, before at last being declared combat ready.

Note that the training establishments do not currently have the facilities to cater for large scale mobilisation of troops with Singleton as an example really only capable of handling about two battalions at a time with a sizeable proportion of the troops housed in tents when not out on the range. The facilities that do exist beyond normal peace time requirements consist mostly of buildings from WWII and Vietnam (ie riddled with asbestos).

And I would agree with what you said. But I did say the capability to raise three divisions does exist in theory organisationally on full mobilisation, not realistically.

And I wouldn't expect that situation to change any time soon as Australia is just to remote for any potential major power to threaten its borders, excluding strategic nuclear weapons. Even Indonesia lacks the logistical resources to seriously invade and hold any Australian territory. And any move by the Indonesians would be detected and eliminated by the RAAF and RAN before it gets any where near the Australian mainland.

For Australia to fully mobilise three divisions (and that's organisationally only), the Australian government would have to seriously plan to use Australian troops abroad in some expeditionary capacity and to take steps to logistically plan such a mobilisation in advance. Or some major threat to Australia and its regional interests would have to emerge.

[Legbreaker]

Yes, it would likely take years to fully mobilise and have a reasonably high percentage of combat ready units.
As for equipment, we've probably got enough small arms (rifles and machineguns) to do the job already, even if many reinforcements would be armed with older equipment. Heavier weapons (40mm grenade launchers and up) are another matter. That was the case in the 41st anyway.
Technically every officer and machinegunner (plus a few others) were supposed to be issued with a pistol as well as their main weapon, but the armouries of the whole battalion had a grand total of just 7 of them... I don't think they ever even saw the light of day.
On the other hand BHQ armoury still contained at least one .55 Boys AT rifle, and my own Company armoury had two .303 Brens, along with three Martini Henry rifles left over from about 150 years before! The Brens might have seen service again if the shit really hit the fan, but the rifles

[RN7]

I think everyone is being far too pessimistic and conservative on what FULL mobilization of any country would look like. In the US Civil War, the Confederates essentially built a competent field army from scratch in six months. The US raised about 50 divisions in the first two years of WWII, and Russia was churning out a division in about 12 weeks in 1940-1941 and the Germans a division in roughly 8 weeks in 1944. In short, when you have to, you can churn out a division in just weeks; it may not be the best trained but all they really need to know is how to shoot and maneuver and men can be taught that in just weeks if need be.

If your just trying to get leg infantry, you can essentially build 12 divisions from 200K personnel in about 18 months easily as well as a good chunk of the vehicles to move them. That is from recruitment to a trained and functional division. A trained Airborne division takes about two years and a commando the same period of time. As for training facilities, well that's where the good old fashion tent comes in. After all, the training camps the US Marines established in New Zealand in WWII consisted of hundreds of tents.

For Australia and New Zealand the limiting factor is equipment. A draft will get the manpower fairly quickly. In 1990, Australia had a population of 17 million. A mobilization and draft to provide say 250,000 recruits to raise 15-20 divisions would hardly make a dent in the overall population. Additionally, every army in 1990 had mountains of equipment just waiting for an emergency. The AUG is far from a complicated weapon and its largely plastic components can be churned out by injection molding very rapidly and in great quantities. Furthermore with a major war going on in their backyard, New Zealand and Australia would have started mobilizing in 1995 almost as soon as the Soviets crossed the border into China with over a year of time to get a few divisions operational before the war started in earnest. Same for the US, England, and the rest of Europe. In my take on the situation, you had almost a full corps of Australian and New Zealand troops in Europe, at least two divisions in each of the middle East and China. Another 2-3 divisions available to deploy into Indonesian and/or the Philippines, and at least another two to keep at home.

To raise an army that size you would need to introduce conscription (national service). The last time Australia introduced national service was during the Vietnam War (as did America) ending in 1972. Conscription during the Second World War was necessary and even popular as Australia (like America) was under threat by a foreign powers. But it certainly wasn't necessary or popular during the Vietnam War were many if not most people objected to the conscription of young men to fight in a war overseas which was far from vital to the national security of Australia. And even during the Vietnam War Australia did not introduce universal conscription, but a lottery based on birth dates of 20 year old males. During the timeline of the Twilight War I don't think any Western government brought in conscription, even countries with bigger defence priorities than Australia. I don't think any Australian government would ever seriously consider doing it again as it would be political suicide, unless of course Australia was under direct attack.

Also how do you arm an army that size Australia now has only one small arms factory at Lithgow NSW, now owned by French company Thales Group.

[RN7]

Also.

If Australia brought in conscription to raise an army of 200,000 and also built a few small arms factories to produce enough rifles and ammunition (barely) to arm it, what about everything else such an army would need.

The only divisions that Australia could raise would be light infantry divisions, and I emphasize the world light. Warfare in the Twilight War as it is today is a lot different to what it was in the Second World War. Highly mechanised and heavily armed armies and the threat from airpower. The casualty rates of Australian divisions would be horrendous.

Where will they get the machineguns, grenade launchers, mortars, anti-tank missiles, and the munitions for them What about armoured vehicles and artillery The Americans might be able to supply some equipment, but their priorities will be on supporting US forces and there are many other US allies who will also be looking for support. Although Australia is a developed country its industrial focus is on mineral and energy extraction and refining, not engineering and precision industries or the mass production of transport equipment. Australia does not have the industrial capacity to arm and support an army of 200,000 troops by itself without a major investment and expansion of its arms and related industries.

Also what about logistics. Even today with more capable military transport aircraft and sea logistics than existed 20 years ago, Australia could barely transport and support one brigade overseas.

[Legbreaker]

Australia does have the capacity to equip a 200,000 strong army, however it's unlikely we could do it with modern equipment. WWII level technology, absolutely, Vietnam era, perhaps. The problem is more with the advances in armour and weaponry - we know how, but can only produce on a small scale (upgrading existing equipment such as the M1 for example). Large scale means going back to simpler processes.

Now that may be well and good for fighting a low tech opponent such as Indonesia, but add in the necessity of conscription and you can bet the population will be very upset - bad enough you take our sons, but to give them obsolete equipment too!

[Targan]

13th Brigade (Reserve): Perth WA

• A Squadron. 10th Light Horse Regiment: Perth WA
• 1/28th Battalion, Royal WA Regiment: Perth WA
• 16th Battalion, Royal WA Regiment: Perth WA
• 3rd Light Battery: Perth WA
• 13th Field Squadron: Perth WA
• 109th Signal Squadron: Perth WA
• 13th Combat Support Squadron: Perth WA

Typo. "1/28th Battalion, Royal WA Regiment: Perth WA" should read 11/28th Battalion. That's my old unit.

[RN7]

Typo. "1/28th Battalion, Royal WA Regiment: Perth WA" should read 11/28th Battalion. That's my old unit.

Righto Targan thanks. Do you incidentally think there is room for the expansion of the Australian Army or not

[CDAT]

If I am reading it correctly the original posting had the Australia military that today is 12+ (counting the reserves) brigades at least on paper, and making it in to 11+ Divisions.

I am not (and have never had the privilege of even visiting) from Australia, but looking at this. Here is my thoughts on it.

Going with the basic "history" that the game starts about five years after the first incident in 1995 (war between Russia and China). This gives us a hard time of no more than five years. Some of NATO gets involved in 1996-97 but not all (France stays neutral). Thanksgiving 1997 Nuclear balloon goes up. War goes on, with final push before you are on your own is in 2000.

With that history What I see is that you really have about a year or two to build up. In 1995 I do not see any call up of reserves, maybe an increased footing for the active units. As we roll into 1996 and the war is looking more and more like it is going to happen I could see they taking a good look at what each country has, and needs. Maybe even increasing production a bit (not a lot as they are trying to stay out). Once war starts then yes I can see the production increasing. However as others have pointed out Australia does not have the production capability, and even if they started building it in 1996, I do not think it would be up and running by time the nukes went. Would the US, Germany, and/or England have the extra production capability to produce stuff for Australia at the same time they are ramping up themselves I do not think so, there are lots of fluff about this American guard unit or that one still having their old tanks, if they had the production to sell extra they would have provided it to there units. So if we go with that Australia can not produce the heavy equipment needed, and there allies can not provide what is needed in the numbers needed then why raise the troops if you can not equip them.

So summing up my thoughts, could Australia raise a 11+ Division army Yes, if they wanted to. Could they do it in the time provided for in the game time line Maybe, if they wanted only light infantry, No if they wanted the heavy troops listed in the post. As they could not equip them. I have seen people talk about how this or that was done in WWII, there are some big differences. Speaking for the US here in WWII most of the auto makers could make most of the military vehicles needed, today we have I believe one, say that again one manufacturer who can make tanks. Aircraft are not much better, were as WWII you could have lost of shops make them. Training, yes some of the training would be cut out, but it still takes longer to train a troop today then it did back then. Back in WWII even most of the "city" folk still has some understanding of firearms, to day some of them (I dare say a lot of them) have no clue other than what TV show them. Well I think I have gone on long enough so I will end it here.

[RN7]

Speaking for the US here in WWII most of the auto makers could make most of the military vehicles needed, today we have I believe one, say that again one manufacturer who can make tanks. Aircraft are not much better, were as WWII you could have lost of shops make them.

This I think was touched upon here. http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.phpt=4627

Currently the US has only one tank factory in Lima, Ohio. I believe that America has not built a new tank from scratch since the mid-1990's. The Abram's are all now taken in and rebuilt or re-molded when needed. Some new parts are still produced and fitted but that is all that is being built at the moment.