Ammo stockpiles

[aspqrz]

An email from a correspondent of mine regarding a particularly silly apocalypse proposal thread on Reddit got me thinking about something that had sort of been kicking around in the back of my head for a long while ...

Assuming something like a 'Walking Dead' outbreak which largely overwhelms society before it can work out a solution, how much ammo is actually on hand at any given time (I'm mainly talking small arms ammo, not large caliber stuff) in military stockpiles

I mean, a lot of Zombie or similar post- apocalypse fiction (not all of it, but a heck of a lot) seems to assume an almost unlimited supply ...

Remembering back to the first episode of TWD, when Rick wakes up and travels through the town seeing the overrun defensive positions etc. Or the last episode of the first season when they get to the CDC and find the army positions outside overrun because they ran out of ammo ...

Obviously, at some point, the ability to manufacture ammo breaks down in the face of the disaster ... but how much ammo would be on hand

The best figure I have been able to come up with is the assumption that NATO (mainly the US) may have had 90 days stockpiles, and more (maybe another 90 days) in the Continental US ... but how long would it last against an enemy who can only be put down permanently by a headshot

Anyone have any idea what sort of stocks of small arms ammo were held Are now held

(Yes, I know Zombie apocalypses are pretty close to being the least credible apocalypse scenarios out there ... but the question of how much ammo there is is ... interesting ...)

Phil

[aspqrz]

There's a line that comes to mind from H Beam Piper's 'Uller Uprising' where the commander of the Terran forces comments to the effect that 'Junior Officers think ammo comes down like manna from heaven when they pray for it over the radio to higher command ...'

There's only three things important in war ... logistics, logistics and logistics.

Phil

[Legbreaker]

Z Nation is another show where they seem perpetually out, or close to out of ammo. It's quiet common for them to have to pool their resources and find they've got three bullets, two paper clips and a winning smile left and little else. Mind you the show proper starts about three years after Z day. Food is often also in critically short supply with one episode almost seeing them die of starvation and thirst.

I can't speak much about overall stocks, but I know my original reserve infantry battalion (Australian) was allocated something like 10,000 rounds of 7.62N ball, about the same 7.62N belted, and an unknown amount of 5.56N (we didn't even have any weapons to fire it until the regular army switched to the F88 and their M16s got handed down), and 9mmP (for a total of 7 pistols in the entire battalion).
This was the annual training supply and could have been a bit less (20+ years ago). It was rumoured that although we were usually a bit short on rifle and machinegun ammo, the battalion had enough 9mm left over to last about a dozen lifetimes! I think we were still being allocated 9mm for the old F1 SMGs we'd handed in a few years before, so it just kept piling up.

[CDAT]

I do not know anything about total amounts, but I know the .50 BMG we were using in 2003 was made in WWII (Dated 44, and 45).

[.45cultist]

And Lake City Ammunition Plant has 4 times the U.S. commercial capacity.

[Blink_Dog]

I was thinking about this very topic about a week ago. This answer is in relation to the Twilight war not so much a zombie outbreak.

There was probably a two maybe even three year period of full tilt production by every ammunition manufacturer worldwide for producing military calibres and production of hunting and civilian use ammo would have ceased. So 5.56N or 7.62x39 would still be available even years after the nukes fly. More obscure calibres with no military use like .38 Special or .44 Magnum would be rare in comparison and only available in small lots.

I would imagine Neutral nations would cash in on ammo sales after the nukes fly due to the worsening global logistic system.

I found this article:

http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues/SepOct10/spectrum_smallarms_ammo.html

[Draq]

Not quite. Civilian calibers would still be in production although at a lower rate than military calibers. The pro-gun american public will buy every last round, cartridge and shell at the slightest hint of war, invasion, or threat to the sencond amendment. And keep in mind, when the war starts (Nov 1997) most law enforcement agencies were still using a hodgepodge of weapons and calibers.

[aspqrz]

That's interesting about Lake City. I guess that the likelihood is that there would be a lot of ammo left ... but probably that the supply chain broke down before it could be distributed.

In a Zombie Apocalypse, you could, therefore, reasonably find ammo convoys overrun by said Zombies, planes carrying vital ammo also at overrun airports or airfields, but probably the bulk of the (huge) stockpiles still in the relevant magazines ... wherever.

Which brings up a related issue ... where the heck does the US store all that ammo

Presumably several places. But where

Likewise, anyone know for other countries

I imagine this is not exactly secret info, just not widely publicised or disseminated,

Phil

[.45cultist]

That's interesting about Lake City. I guess that the likelihood is that there would be a lot of ammo left ... but probably that the supply chain broke down before it could be distributed.

In a Zombie Apocalypse, you could, therefore, reasonably find ammo convoys overrun by said Zombies, planes carrying vital ammo also at overrun airports or airfields, but probably the bulk of the (huge) stockpiles still in the relevant magazines ... wherever.

Which brings up a related issue ... where the heck does the US store all that ammo

Presumably several places. But where

Likewise, anyone know for other countries

I imagine this is not exactly secret info, just not widely publicised or disseminated,

Phil

Onsite in carts called "buggies", bunkers and rail cars. Plus there is SAAMI safe, Military rejected ammo and contract overrun and surplus ammo all for civilian sale. The contractor was a branch of ATK who owns 75-80% of the civilian ammo makers. LC is one of twelve top plants in the world, the only other one in the Americas is in Brazil. BTW, Lake City is "GOCO", Govt Owned, Contractor Operated. What small arms ammunition it doesn't make or assemble(Winchester SLAP), it packs according to U.S. specs (Bofors 5.56N AP Tungsten core).It is the source of .30-06 Ap, the backbone of U.S. military armor rating programs.

[aspqrz]

So, you're saying it is ALL stored onsite at Salt Lake City

Seems a bit ... odd ...

Nothing stored nearer, oh, I dunno, major military bases and/or ports or suchlike (and I don't mean stuff presumably 'in transit' from SLC)

Of course, there's the Maritime Prepositioning Ships in the Indian Ocean (and wherever) and, presumably, the support ships for MEFs and MEBs, those that are embarked at the time of the ZA, presumably ... and aren't sunk/'lost at sea'

I know when I was in the Citizen Military Forces in 1974-75, there was bugger all (if any) ammo stored at Sydney University Regiment base ... if we did a Range Day or suchlike it was provided onsite and, IIRC, came from somewhere out to the west of Sydney ... Holsworthy Maybe Singleton

I also know that at Queen Victoria Barracks (Regular Army) in Sydney the only ammo on the premises was for the Browning Hi-Power kept locked in the Paymaster's safe, and brought out when pay was being issued (in cash in those days). Allegedly the ammo had been in the magazine, which was only inserted in the pistol when 'in use', and had been for ... longer than anyone could remember (which was the last time the weapon had been stripped an cleaned rather than merely wiped over externally).

Wouldn't like anyone's chances of getting off more than one shot (because the spring feed in the mag had been under compression for so long) ... and even that wouldn't be a certainty.

No fending off Zombie Hordes with that gun.

(And, no, back in the day, 'armed' sentries at military bases had no ammo in their rifles, either ... MPs, maybe. OOW, possibly)

Phil

[CDAT]

So, you're saying it is ALL stored onsite at Salt Lake City

Seems a bit ... odd ...

Nothing stored nearer, oh, I dunno, major military bases and/or ports or suchlike (and I don't mean stuff presumably 'in transit' from SLC)

Of course, there's the Maritime Prepositioning Ships in the Indian Ocean (and wherever) and, presumably, the support ships for MEFs and MEBs, those that are embarked at the time of the ZA, presumably ... and aren't sunk/'lost at sea'

I know when I was in the Citizen Military Forces in 1974-75, there was bugger all (if any) ammo stored at Sydney University Regiment base ... if we did a Range Day or suchlike it was provided onsite and, IIRC, came from somewhere out to the west of Sydney ... Holsworthy Maybe Singleton

I also know that at Queen Victoria Barracks (Regular Army) in Sydney the only ammo on the premises was for the Browning Hi-Power kept locked in the Paymaster's safe, and brought out when pay was being issued (in cash in those days). Allegedly the ammo had been in the magazine, which was only inserted in the pistol when 'in use', and had been for ... longer than anyone could remember (which was the last time the weapon had been stripped an cleaned rather than merely wiped over externally).

Wouldn't like anyone's chances of getting off more than one shot (because the spring feed in the mag had been under compression for so long) ... and even that wouldn't be a certainty.

No fending off Zombie Hordes with that gun.

(And, no, back in the day, 'armed' sentries at military bases had no ammo in their rifles, either ... MPs, maybe. OOW, possibly)

Phil

Two things, first it is lake city, not Salt Lake (not sure where lake city is located), second at least in the US every military base that I have been to has ammo stockpiled both war stocks and training ammo, depending on the base and what training can be done there would make a difference on what ammo is there.

[aspqrz]

Two things, first it is lake city, not Salt Lake (not sure where lake city is located), second at least in the US every military base that I have been to has ammo stockpiled both war stocks and training ammo, depending on the base and what training can be done there would make a difference on what ammo is there.

Ah, sorry, Lake City.

So, 'war stocks' are

The only reference I was able to dig up is for a 'unit of fire' and the definition dates back to WW2 and assumed 1 days high intensity battle (and assumed that would only occur once a month, at least in the PTO) for the unit. AIUI now undefined (or maybe called something else) Units of Fire are carried on unit transport, at least at Battalion level or above.

ISTR (hazily) that it was assumed that a US/NATO unit would typically have 2-3 UoFs at Battalion, the same at Brigade, and perhaps 2-3 times that much at Divisional level, at least when on a war footing. Whether that was more pious wishful thinking or actuality I have no idea ... I do remember reading that non US NATO (especially the Dutch and Danes) skimped on all sorts of ammo and ordnance, relying on the assumption that the US would bail then out from *their* stocks if the shtf ... which would, of course, burnt US logistics planning to a crisp.

So, I am guessing, bases have (on or nearby) at least one UoF (for long term training rather than combat) and an unspecified amount additional to that for 'war reserve' ... but, presumably, not on the base itself (if in or near a populated area) or one some out of the way part of the base

Which would be what would be burnt through at least once in any ZA scenario, a la The Walking Dead ... I can't see a lot of aimed headshots (except maybe Marines, if you take their assertions seriously) but one hell of a lot of spray and pray, especially as Zombie numbers escalate.

I would guess that artillery units would be mostly useless by the time the need for them was realised ... they require a rear area to be placed in, but pretty much everywhere would be 'front line' ... as Zombie numbers increase, they'd need more troops defending them than they would contribute firepower to distant units. Unless they can (and do) fire over open sights ... which requires flechette or canister or whatever they call it these days, and I understand that there's never much of it, if it is even available for the caliber weapon in question.

Mortars would, of course, be useful, but run into the resupply problem and, to a lesser extent, the need for a rear area.

Airforce bases Well, they would have to be defended and, apart from Helicopters (Attack or merely armed), wouldn't have much utility because of lack of the right sort of ordnance, I am guessing. Standard HE/Frag would be worse than useless ... you'd need napalm or massive overkill with something like bomblets, and I suspect they are in relatively short supply,.

Naval bases would have an advantage in that they can simply pull up the gangplank and watch the Zombies mill around on shore ... assuming the base has enough lift capacity to put everyone on ships. And assuming that the infection doesn't get aboard the ships ... at which point they become the venue for a nasty real-life version of a Hollywood slasher flick.

And the Navy's problem would be that, aiui, ships carry only a small number of smallarms, only enough for a tiny fraction of the complement, and, likewise, don't carry a heck of a lot of smallarms ammo for those weapons. Unless, of course, you have a MEF or MEB stationed there, along with its 'Phibs and support ships.

(And that assumes that said Naval Base is actually on or otherwise connected to an Ocean ... I saw enough 'Naval Facilities' in inland locations as I toured all over the US for almost 3 months in 2010 and again in 2014)

Phil

[aspqrz]

Lake City, outside of Independence, MO.

Even more out of the way than SLC!

Phil

[.45cultist]

Ah, sorry, Lake City.

So, 'war stocks' are

The only reference I was able to dig up is for a 'unit of fire' and the definition dates back to WW2 and assumed 1 days high intensity battle (and assumed that would only occur once a month, at least in the PTO) for the unit. AIUI now undefined (or maybe called something else) Units of Fire are carried on unit transport, at least at Battalion level or above.

ISTR (hazily) that it was assumed that a US/NATO unit would typically have 2-3 UoFs at Battalion, the same at Brigade, and perhaps 2-3 times that much at Divisional level, at least when on a war footing. Whether that was more pious wishful thinking or actuality I have no idea ... I do remember reading that non US NATO (especially the Dutch and Danes) skimped on all sorts of ammo and ordnance, relying on the assumption that the US would bail then out from *their* stocks if the shtf ... which would, of course, burnt US logistics planning to a crisp.

So, I am guessing, bases have (on or nearby) at least one UoF (for long term training rather than combat) and an unspecified amount additional to that for 'war reserve' ... but, presumably, not on the base itself (if in or near a populated area) or one some out of the way part of the base

Which would be what would be burnt through at least once in any ZA scenario, a la The Walking Dead ... I can't see a lot of aimed headshots (except maybe Marines, if you take their assertions seriously) but one hell of a lot of spray and pray, especially as Zombie numbers escalate.

I would guess that artillery units would be mostly useless by the time the need for them was realised ... they require a rear area to be placed in, but pretty much everywhere would be 'front line' ... as Zombie numbers increase, they'd need more troops defending them than they would contribute firepower to distant units. Unless they can (and do) fire over open sights ... which requires flechette or canister or whatever they call it these days, and I understand that there's never much of it, if it is even available for the caliber weapon in question.

Mortars would, of course, be useful, but run into the resupply problem and, to a lesser extent, the need for a rear area.

Airforce bases Well, they would have to be defended and, apart from Helicopters (Attack or merely armed), wouldn't have much utility because of lack of the right sort of ordnance, I am guessing. Standard HE/Frag would be worse than useless ... you'd need napalm or massive overkill with something like bomblets, and I suspect they are in relatively short supply,.

Naval bases would have an advantage in that they can simply pull up the gangplank and watch the Zombies mill around on shore ... assuming the base has enough lift capacity to put everyone on ships. And assuming that the infection doesn't get aboard the ships ... at which point they become the venue for a nasty real-life version of a Hollywood slasher flick.

And the Navy's problem would be that, aiui, ships carry only a small number of smallarms, only enough for a tiny fraction of the complement, and, likewise, don't carry a heck of a lot of smallarms ammo for those weapons. Unless, of course, you have a MEF or MEB stationed there, along with its 'Phibs and support ships.

(And that assumes that said Naval Base is actually on or otherwise connected to an Ocean ... I saw enough 'Naval Facilities' in inland locations as I toured all over the US for almost 3 months in 2010 and again in 2014)

Phil

As I understand it, each TO&E says "X" amount of Ammunition to train and "Y" amount of Ammunition for war is to be stored. You don't just dump excess ammo from one into the other. And a few careers have ended over inappropriate disposal before Change of Command, when the unit property books are inspected. For a "Z" scenario or early in the Twilight War this could change though. So if a unit is allotted 10 cases of 5.56N to deploy in war, it has 1 to 10 cases allotted for re-qualification and training depending on the circumstances.

[Apache6]

Major bases have a contingency stock and training ammo

Stateside in the U.S., major bases have a certain ammount of contingency ammunition which is really maintained to provide the initial combat load for forces mounting out for expeditionary operations. I will not state specific amounts but it's more then a couple combat loads (though it veries by type) for units assigned there with expeditionary missions.

There is also normally a fairly large amount of ammunition stored for training. A major combat unit goes through a lot of ammunitiion over a course of a year. The ammunition is normally ordered and delivered based on fiscal year (begining in October rather then Jan) training cycles.

At an absolote minimum, even a non deployable Marine unit gets ~ 400 rounds of 5.56mm for each Marine to conduct annual rifle range requalification and ~ 200 rounds of 9mm for each SNCO/Officer and junior Marine assigned a pistol to conduct annual pistol qualification.

Deployable combat arms units are allocated much more ammo.

There are several VERY large ammunition stockpiles on the east and west coast which are built near major ports to allow for then to be sent overseas, each also has rail and road access, built to allow them to receive munitions from the factories. Would also serve to allow it to be sent out.

Both the Army and the Navy (for the USMC) have contracted ammunition ships which contain large ammunition stockpiles which are designed to support major combat operations by brigade sized units. The Maritime Positioning Ships, contracted by USN in support of USMC land operations stock 15 days worth of ammunition for a Marine Expeditionary Brigade.