Berlin in 1996

[RN7]

Thanks Jason that was a great article.

However in T2K this Soviet plan for an occupation of West Berlin would have been thrown out as the Germans themselves decided to reunify, and the NVA changes side very quickly. So if the Soviets won't "liberate" West Berlin themselves then there is only the remnant loyalist regime and security forces in East Berlin to take on the Allied Garrisons in West Berlin.

Its hard to find information about how much was stockpiled in West Berlin. There is a NY Times article that states that there was 300,000 tons of food and supplies worth $480 million stockpiled in 280 warehouses across West Berlin. And that is what the government of West Berlin stockpiled alone, not the Allied garrisons.

[Jason Weiser]

Thanks Jason that was a great article.

However in T2K this Soviet plan for an occupation of West Berlin would have been thrown out as the Germans themselves decided to reunify, and the NVA changes side very quickly. So if the Soviets won't "liberate" West Berlin themselves then there is only the remnant loyalist regime and security forces in East Berlin to take on the Allied Garrisons in West Berlin.

My point exactly, most of the East German force that was slated to take West Berlin was pulled from a variety of sources:

First, there was the NVA's 1st MRD, which would have invariably joined the revolt. Next, was the various formations of the People's Police Alert Battalions (read: well armed riot cops, whose loyalty would have been suspect at best, and at worst, would have certainly balked at taking on NVA troops armed with AFV and all manner of artillery), the Frontier Troops (same boat at the People's Police, and the NVA might have enjoyed gunning them down, these were the hated Grenztruppen, after all.), and elements of the "Combat Groups of the Working Class" (party militia meant as a counter-balance to the Army and the Stasi, read more like a communist version of the Volkssturm to me.)

In short, could the Soviets have trusted anyone enough to launch an assault on West Berlin Probably not. And more likely, their Motor Rifle Brigade at Karlhorst would have been under siege as some, if not all of these units, turned on them. And where might the Willi Sanger battalion (which I believe was expanding about this time), have come down All in all, the Allies in West Berlin might have been more than happy to simply seal the borders themselves and hunker down, hoping nobody noticed them..

Its hard to find information about how much was stockpiled in West Berlin. There is a NY Times article that states that there was 300,000 tons of food and supplies worth $480 million stockpiled in 280 warehouses across West Berlin. And that is what the government of West Berlin stockpiled alone, not the Allied garrisons.

I spoke to some folks who might have been in a position to know. Those were the answers I got. Frankly, I would think the West Berlin garrison would have run out of people before they ran out of supplies, there wasn't enough of them and they were not, in my opinion, well armed enough to deny the East Germans forever..in a normal scenario. In a T2K scenario Their best defense is to scream their neutrality to the heavens and hope neither side notices them till the Bundeswehr arrives, or sanity breaks out. Of course, once the wider war starts...that is a whole other kettle of fish, but again, are the Soviets going to spend lives to take West Berlin when they have three US Heavy Corps, along with two British Corps and at least a division's worth of Canadians come crashing over the IGB to deal with

Something tells me that within days of NATO's entry into the war, a decision is made in the Kremlin to write off Germany. It cannot be held with the current correlation of forces. Best to withdraw across the Oder and dig in, hoping that they can reinforce in the spring and counterattack. Of course, NATO gets there first, but in short, by December of 1996, Germany is a lost cause to the Warsaw Pact. Anyone who can read a map can see that. And the Poles and Czechs worried about whether or not the Soviets will defend them What is the better option in their eyes Surrender to a resurgent Germany No, they experienced that already once this century, better the devil they know...

[RN7]

In short, could the Soviets have trusted anyone enough to launch an assault on West Berlin Probably not. And more likely, their Motor Rifle Brigade at Karlhorst would have been under siege as some, if not all of these units, turned on them. And where might the Willi Sanger battalion (which I believe was expanding about this time), have come down All in all, the Allies in West Berlin might have been more than happy to simply seal the borders themselves and hunker down, hoping nobody noticed them.....

That's pretty much it, the Soviets would have to do it themselves and with the way the war is developing can they afford to divert military resources

I spoke to some folks who might have been in a position to know. Those were the answers I got. Frankly, I would think the West Berlin garrison would have run out of people before they ran out of supplies, there wasn't enough of them and they were not, in my opinion, well armed enough to deny the East Germans forever..in a normal scenario. In a T2K scenario Their best defense is to scream their neutrality to the heavens and hope neither side notices them till the Bundeswehr arrives, or sanity breaks out. Of course, once the wider war starts...that is a whole other kettle of fish, but again, are the Soviets going to spend lives to take West Berlin when they have three US Heavy Corps, along with two British Corps and at least a division's worth of Canadians come crashing over the IGB to deal with

Once NATO crosses the IGB the game is up for them in Germany.

Something tells me that within days of NATO's entry into the war, a decision is made in the Kremlin to write off Germany. It cannot be held with the current correlation of forces. Best to withdraw across the Oder and dig in, hoping that they can reinforce in the spring and counterattack. Of course, NATO gets there first, but in short, by December of 1996, Germany is a lost cause to the Warsaw Pact. Anyone who can read a map can see that. And the Poles and Czechs worried about whether or not the Soviets will defend them What is the better option in their eyes Surrender to a resurgent Germany No, they experienced that already once this century, better the devil they know...

I would agree, but in T2K they continue to fight.

The Soviets and the East German regime have a great deal of resources in East Germany, especially in the eastern districts such as the (now) state of Brandenburg. Underground bunkers all over in places such as Potsdam. The Falkenhagen military bunker complex just west of the Oder was the largest Soviet command and control centre outside of the Soviet Union. Falkenhagen was actually built by the Nazis, and the Soviets just took it over and expanded it. When Berlin is captured the Soviets keep fighting and the war doesn't end when NATO reaches the Oder in the New Year. Advent Crown happened in the spring of 1997 and the Germans and NATO keeps on marching through Poland. Why

[Jason Weiser]

No question RN, what I guess I didn't make clear was this:

The Poles and the Czechs will not drop out of the war, not with the threat of a resurgent Germany. NATO stops at the Oder in December 1996 for a variety of reasons:

1) To let their logistical structure catch up with their armies

2) Because river crossings in a European winter aren't the easiest thing to pull off..ask the US Army with the Sava River.

3) Because in some corners, there would be a feeling that there should be a pause to attempt a political solution to the fighting in Europe. Basically, present the Soviets with a fait accompli and assure the Poles and Czechs (as well as some reluctant NATO allies) that Germany was going to be kept in check via NATO (although how successful that had been is now a matter for debate, no)

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The Soviets had at least two closed towns near Berlin with at least part of their reason for existing being to keep a "friendly" eye on the city. These towns were off limits to Germans, self contained and were almost independent from East Germany in terms of food and supplies.

The first, Vogelsang, was a barracks town built by the Soviets in the village district of the same name. It lies just a little over 50km north from the centre of Berlin and had a tank division based there.
Vogelsang is particularly interesting because apparently during the course of its occupation by the Soviets, they stationed and/or stored nuclear missiles there on a few ocassions, the last being from 1983 till 1988.
Some links

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20079147

http://www.uncubemagazine.com/blog/14820889

https://yearinberlin.com/2013/05/08/vogelsang-a-soviet-ghost-town/

http://www.abandonedberlin.com/2014/11/vogelsang-soviet-military-camp-nuclear-missiles.html

This last two links may prove useful for this particular discussion as one is the website of an Englishman who spent time living in Berlin and exploring the city while the other is the site of an urban explorer devoted to Berlin.

The second town, Wnsdorf, was about 40km south of the centre of Berlin and was a Soviet headquarters town with a nearby airfield. Wnsdorf is particularly interesting because it was the site of the WW2 German regime's Maybach I and Maybach II high command bunkers (which were mostly destroyed by the Soviets but some buildings and bunkers were left intact and re-used by them). It had a rail link that ran directly to Moscow and was apparently the largest Soviet base outside the USSR (estimated at between 70,000 and 60,000 personnel).
The townsite has been somewhat re-purposed as a book sellers marketplace.
Some links

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/abandoned-soviet-outpost-glimpses-of-a-forgotten-forbidden-city-a-800658.html

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/08/14/world/a-cold-war-ruin-but-with-potential.html

http://www.abandonedberlin.com/2013/09/forbidden-city-nazis-russians-lenin.html

https://lostandforgottenberlin.wordpress.com/2014/09/19/the-forbidden-city-wunsdorf-waldstade/

Again, the last two links are particularly relevant to this discussion, although the first is already mentioned above. The second is also an urban explorer's site devoted to Berlin.
For anyone visiting the area in the future, tours of the town can be taken: -

http://www.buecherstadt.com/en/bunker/

http://www.hivino.travel/discover-germany/secret-places-with-historical-flair/wnsdorf-the-book-town/e407

Slightly off-topic but those links could also prove useful for anyone running the Contested Ground Studios rpgs Hot War or more particularly Cold City.

http://www.contestedground.co.uk/

[RN7]

No question RN, what I guess I didn't make clear was this:

The Poles and the Czechs will not drop out of the war, not with the threat of a resurgent Germany. NATO stops at the Oder in December 1996 for a variety of reasons:

The Czechs and Poles for obvious reasons will fight as they worried about a reunited and rearmed Germany. But the Soviet don't abandon their positions in East Germany and retreat to the Oder after NATO crosses the IGB. They fight on and also in Berlin, and are forced to retreat to the Oder by NATO.

3) Because in some corners, there would be a feeling that there should be a pause to attempt a political solution to the fighting in Europe. Basically, present the Soviets with a fait accompli and assure the Poles and Czechs (as well as some reluctant NATO allies) that Germany was going to be kept in check via NATO (although how successful that had been is now a matter for debate, no)

I think we talked about this on this thread.

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.phpt=1038

Or was it this thread..

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.phpt=5197

However if NATO and the Germans were in control of East Germany and were content with that, why did they cross the Oder-Neisse Line into Poland in the Spring of 1997. The Soviets must have clearly not accepted the fait accompli that was present to them in Germany, as they keep fighting until they are forced to the Oder, and they must have intended to re-invade Germany and where building forces to do so for NATO to attack Poland.

[RN7]

The Soviets had at least two closed towns near Berlin with at least part of their reason for existing being to keep a "friendly" eye on the city. These towns were off limits to Germans, self contained and were almost independent from East Germany in terms of food and supplies.

The first, Vogelsang, was a barracks town built by the Soviets in the village district of the same name. It lies just a little over 50km north from the centre of Berlin and had a tank division based there.
Vogelsang is particularly interesting because apparently during the course of its occupation by the Soviets, they stationed and/or stored nuclear missiles there on a few ocassions, the last being from 1983 till 1988.
Some links

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20079147

http://www.uncubemagazine.com/blog/14820889

https://yearinberlin.com/2013/05/08/vogelsang-a-soviet-ghost-town/

http://www.abandonedberlin.com/2014/11/vogelsang-soviet-military-camp-nuclear-missiles.html

This last two links may prove useful for this particular discussion as one is the website of an Englishman who spent time living in Berlin and exploring the city while the other is the site of an urban explorer devoted to Berlin.

The second town, Wnsdorf, was about 40km south of the centre of Berlin and was a Soviet headquarters town with a nearby airfield. Wnsdorf is particularly interesting because it was the site of the WW2 German regime's Maybach I and Maybach II high command bunkers (which were mostly destroyed by the Soviets but some buildings and bunkers were left intact and re-used by them). It had a rail link that ran directly to Moscow and was apparently the largest Soviet base outside the USSR (estimated at between 70,000 and 60,000 personnel).
The townsite has been somewhat re-purposed as a book sellers marketplace.
Some links

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/abandoned-soviet-outpost-glimpses-of-a-forgotten-forbidden-city-a-800658.html

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/08/14/world/a-cold-war-ruin-but-with-potential.html

http://www.abandonedberlin.com/2013/09/forbidden-city-nazis-russians-lenin.html

https://lostandforgottenberlin.wordpress.com/2014/09/19/the-forbidden-city-wunsdorf-waldstade/

Again, the last two links are particularly relevant to this discussion, although the first is already mentioned above. The second is also an urban explorer's site devoted to Berlin.
For anyone visiting the area in the future, tours of the town can be taken: -

http://www.buecherstadt.com/en/bunker/

http://www.hivino.travel/discover-germany/secret-places-with-historical-flair/wnsdorf-the-book-town/e407

Slightly off-topic but those links could also prove useful for anyone running the Contested Ground Studios rpgs Hot War or more particularly Cold City.
http://www.contestedground.co.uk/

Nice links.

[Jason Weiser]

The Czechs and Poles for obvious reasons will fight as they worried about a reunited and rearmed Germany. But the Soviet don't abandon their positions in East Germany and retreat to the Oder after NATO crosses the IGB. They fight on and also in Berlin, and are forced to retreat to the Oder by NATO.

However if NATO and the Germans were in control of East Germany and were content with that, why did they cross the Oder-Neisse Line into Poland in the Spring of 1997. The Soviets must have clearly not accepted the fait accompli that was present to them in Germany, as they keep fighting until they are forced to the Oder, and they must have intended to re-invade Germany and where building forces to do so for NATO to attack Poland.

It might have been a combination of factors

1. The Poles and the Czechs are not taking any deal where Germany reunifies by force. No way, no how.

2. The Soviets attacked Norway in December, which must have really scared the crap out of the remaining members of NATO (See, the Russians just can't be trusted!)

3. Two large armies are in close proximity...incidents are bound to happen...

[RN7]

I agree that it's ambiguous, but I think it's more clearly implied that it starts in Europe, since that's the first theater mentioned (in the quote I posted). If it started in China, why wasn't that the first theater mentioned German forces setting foot on Soviet soil is clearly the trigger for the nuclear option. Why would the Soviets use nukes in China first when the existential threat is in West

More ambiguity, or maybe not.

From UK Sourcebook, Page 8:

"In mid-July in the Far East, the Chinese launched a major offensive in the summer. At this time, the Sino-Soviet nuclear exchange began, and the division took heavy losses from several tactical nuclear strikes."

" By the end of September, NATO began to use tactical nuclear weapons to stop the Soviets. The Soviets replied by using their own nuclear weapons."

[StainlessSteelCynic]

While browsing other parts of the web about Cold War Europe and also reading this thread, I found the following page that has some interesting claims about the situation in the two Germanys: -

https://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2009/11/why_berlin_mattered.html

Specifically this section, although it should probably be noted that some of this appears to be the author's opinion: -
"By October, the Soviets had closed off all but one border crossing. On Oct. 27, in a now-forgotten confrontation (one year before the Cuban missile crisis), Soviet and American tanks faced each other along that checkpoint, at short range, for 16 hours until negotiations were held and the Soviet tanks backed off. The crisis faded.

There would never be another crisis over Berlin (which may be why all the previous ones have largely been forgotten). The Soviet rulers had no need to threaten West Berlin as long as the wall kept their own people locked in.

The wall was built to bottle up an incipient revolt"a mass emigration that threatened to expose the Soviet system as inferior to the West, as an oppressive dungeon that its most educated young people yearned to escape. The wall not only blocked those yearnings; it also made clear to the brighter young Soviet and Eastern European leaders that the system itself"the ideological basis of their rule"was suspect, that it could not be sustained, much less compete with the West, without the internal imposition of force.

Khrushchev was ousted by hardliners in 1964. For the next quarter-century, the Kremlin's leaders devolved into increasingly sluggish bureaucrats; the system itself bogged down more and more obviously. In 1988, when Mikhail Gorbachev set a course of serious reform and reopened the Soviet Union to the world, the possibilities that had been unleashed in the late 1950s, but suppressed ever since, once more bubbled up in the popular imagination. And when the wall came down, it was like a cork exploding."


This other site mentions some of the supplies stockpiled in West Berlin in the 1980s, including one year's worth of natural gas!

https://www.the-berlin-wall.com/videos/natural-gas-and-senate-stockpiles-698/

That site has a number of interesting video presentations arranged by timeline. Some of them discuss the political opposition in East Berlin

And while I was caught up in finding more about possible stockpiles in West Berlin I also found this page from the New York Times in 1990: -

http://articles.latimes.com/1990-11-21/news/mn-4560_1_west-berlin

It specifically mentions 300,000 metric tons of food & other supplies and 280 warehouses around the city and mentions that the stockpile was large enough to supply West Berlin for up to a year in the article about sending the food stored in West Berlin to the Soviet Union as emergency relief in November 1990.

[James Langham]

Well worth a look is Gordon Rottman's book in the Osprey Fortress series that covers both Berlin and the Inner-German Border.

[Adm.Lee]

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...om_search=true

Special Forces Berlin: Clandestine Cold War Operations of the U.S. Army's Elite, 1956-1990
by James Stejskal

I heard about this on the Spycast podcast, here: https://audioboom.com/posts/6137930-...james-stejskal

It's next up on my to-read pile. These were supposed to be the stay-behind SF, when/if the Sovs crossed the borders. According to the interview, the Sovs and East Germans never knew they were there. There were some covert ops outside the city, too.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Something else that makes Berlin interesting is the trio of flak tower complexes built during WW2.

One of them, located in what was then East Berlin, was demolished and the rubble covered over to form an artificial hill (known officially as Grosser Bunkerberg/Large Bunker Mountain and unofficially as Mont Klamott).
There was so much rubble from the main tower that the hill rises to 78m while the smaller tower provided enough rubble to create a hill of 48m.

Speculating idly, I wonder if there are any open spaces in the rubble Something that could be burrowed into to create a hidey hole for someone attempting to survive in Berlin. One website claims that these demolished towers can indeed be visited... but you will have to do a lot of digging... in a public park... However that won't be any real barrier in the T2k world.

http://worldwartwo.filminspector.com/2014/12/flak-towers-of-world-war-ii.html

Nothing remains of the tower complex that was in Tiergarten (the site is now part of the Berlin Zoo).
The third complex still has portions of the structures intact. Intact and high enough to make good observation points. Some of the interior remains intact for one of the towers as well. Apparently this last section was left because it was feared demolition attempts would damage the nearby railway lines.
Links for the Berlin towers: -

http://www.battlefieldsww2.com/berlin-flaktowers.html

https://www.triphistoric.com/the-berlin-flak-tower-472/

https://www.landmarkscout.com/flak-tower-humboltshain-berlin-germany/

Another, although you have to scroll down about two thirds of the page: -

http://www.thirdreichruins.com/berlin.htm

There's also this YouTube vid although it doesn't actually show the tower until the 2:55 mark. It doesn't show any of the interior but it does illustrate the field of view available from the top of the tower and gives a sense of scale when you see people standing next to it. It also shows some of the battle damage apparently sustained during the fight for Berlin.

https://www.youtube.com/watchv=kzdDJG7rU1s

Here's the wiki link to their page on the flak towers in general.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flak_tower

A link with a number of period photos, some showing the interior of the towers.

http://theelephantgate.weebly.com/the-war-comes-to-the-zoo.html

These towers are generally forgotten in most histories of WW2.
There were more of them in cities controlled by Nazi Germany and many survive to this day, the effort and expense required to demolish them was deemed too much in some cases.
While this site does have the same general info as others I've linked to, it does have a useful map of the locations of the surviving towers: -

https://owlcation.com/humanities/World-War-2-History-German-Flak-Towers-Indestructible-Air-Defense-Castles

Most towers had walls 3.5m/11ft thick. They were massive & formidable fortifications that have been described by some as "anti-aircraft castles". Most of them could accommodate 10,000 people during air raids.
Anecdotal stories tell of the Soviets in Berlin eventually besieging the towers to starve out the defenders rather than attacking them because they had no ordnance that could penetrate the structures.

There is no doubt in my mind that the towers in Vienna and Hamburg (having survived largely intact) would be useful places in T2k... useful, or troublesome, depending on who controls them

Some other links: -

https://war-documentary.info/vienna-flak-towers-flakturm/

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/hitlers-flak-towers-were-anti-aircraft-castles-4da8c423b725

http://www.kuriositas.com/2012/04/flak-towers-legacy-of-luftwaffe.html

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/37-images-massive-german-flak-towers.html

https://www.thevintagenews.com/2018/01/17/flak-towers/

https://timeline.com/hitlers-flak-towers-were-fortresses-of-nazi-military-might-b18b7627fe91

[StainlessSteelCynic]

More food for thought.

Something I just stumbled across while looking for something else, a radio espionage mystery from the two Germanys at the end of the Cold War
East Germany detected very short radio transmissions and mounted a months long operation to locate the source under the title Operation Hamster.

While not directly connected to Berlin, it's an interesting bit of information that might be useful for gaming e.g. some of the radio transmitters may still be operable and could be recycled for a similar purpose elsewhere, the PC's have to locate & retrieve the transmitters.
However... it could easiiy tie into the first stages of the war, helping West Germany in some way prepare for the reunification plan.

Explaining more (either about Operation Hamster or the potential for gaming) would be a spoiler for those who enjoy exploring the information so I'll leave further discussion until people feel like discussing it.

http://scienceblogs.de/klausis-krypto-kolumne/2018/04/29/a-spy-radio-mystery-from-the-cold-war/

Now for some Berlin content.
A further article I found while trying to find more about Hamster, deals with the USSF unit in Berlin. No specific detail but interesting info never-the-less (and some photos, check out that Cold War fashion!)

https://www.fayobserver.com/news/20170624/secrets-of-special-forces-unit-operating-in-cold-war-berlin

And there's this article from the US Army's Armor magazine about East German plans for the capture of West Berlin.

http://ciar.org/ttk/mbt/armor/armor-magazine/armor-mag.1994.nd/6berlin94.pdf

This article is interesting because it raises the possibility for game use that perhaps the East German Border Guard was dissatisfied with life in East Germany and was complicit in helping West Germany. Needs more work to flesh it our but it's an intriguing option.

https://theaviationist.com/2014/11/10/the-untold-story-of-the-us-army-unit-that-surveilled-the-eastwest-german-border-before-the-collapse-of-the-wall/

And this one, just because it was as much fun to read as it was revealing.

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/cold-war-spies-sifted-through-used-soviet-toilet-paper-in-search-of-clues