State Guards in T2K (Includes User-made Unit)

[CDAT]

The counter-argument is that State Guard isn't a full-time job except for the very highest echelons, so it shouldn't be a career path at all, but a secondary choice.

As far as them being just military units, I can't speak for other states, but that's laughable for Virginia. The VDF has been in essentially its current form since 1983, providing disaster support.

There are a fair number of State Guards that handily pre-date the T2K timeline. Virginia's current version has existed since 1983 (when the State Constitution was changed). California's had theirs since 1846. Georgia's had their current version since 1985 (in the 70s, it was essentially a volunteer auxiliary police force). Indiana's dates back to the Civil War. Maryland has had a Defense Force since 1983. Massachusetts had one until last year (when the new governor declined to extend their charter). Michigan had the Emergency Volunteers from 1988 to 1998. Mississippi reactivated theirs in 1986 due to the Total Force Concept. Washington has had theirs since 1960. Out of those, California, Georgia, and Indiana are the only ones that I know provide weapons training to their State Guard. Most State Guards that exist are not an "organized military force" in the sense of having any sort of combat capability.

Given the widely varying levels of training and duties of State Guards, I think it may be best to do two different versions of State Guard. The first would be to have it as part of the secondary options for characters, more as an explanation of how they learned a skill than as anything else. The second would be a draft option for characters who are too old to reasonably be expected to be sent overseas. Historically, the draft has tended to be limited to people 45 or younger, so having State Guard as a draft option for characters with 8+ terms seems possible. Anyone younger than that would likely be drafted before the State Guards become a full-time occupation.

This is kind of what I have been trying to say, as right now (and also pre-TW2000) most places it is more a social club, I am not understanding the restriction put on it. I understand that it became something different , but up tell that time it was not a full time career.

[rcaf_777]

This is kind of what I have been trying to say, as right now (and also pre-TW2000) most places it is more a social club, I am not understanding the restriction put on it. I understand that it became something different , but up tell that time it was not a full time career.

It's dose not matter what the State Guard look like prior to pre-TW2000 as the PC are generated after war starts.

Take a look at the basic rules and character generation, you see plenty of restrictions for certain career paths. Those are in place to add realism to character generation. You can't use the regular rules, cause you won't end up with character you expect to see in the guard. Which are old men unfit for combat, but with a sense to service.

Look at the State Guard during WWII and the UK Home Guard of how you see them organized and trained on the fly and into a some what military force.

I'm not going for a regular army.....more like Dad's Army

[Raellus]

Perhaps someone already suggested this, but maybe a solution to the pre-war State Guard "career" is a special set of secondary activity skills. In v2.2, some career terms allow certain secondary activities that boost attributes or add skills. Using this system would allow one to pick existing civilian careers but still gain two or three additional skills (military or related) for every term spent in the SG.

Maybe a menu of skills would be best. A term of service in the SG would entitle the character to any 2-3 skills from that menu. This would, of course, replace the standard secondary activity perks for that career term.

[simonmark6]

Giving someone 2-3 choices from a menu is very powerful for a State Guard secondary skill which is generally 1 point. I'd say that if a previous turn included military, LEO or paramedic/emergency services then the character could choose to use their secondary skill point form one of those careers to represent them doing something they used to do as a job as a hobby.

Also, if you are talking retired people, you need a retirement term which would be 1 skill from the secondary list and 1 secondary skill, thus having the State Guard background would give a PC the option of having a more relevant skill than just the secondary skill list.

If you are having a game where the PCs are all retired State Guard, you may get the situation where character generation is frustrating or even like the old Traveller where your character dies in generation.

Bear in mind:
Aging rolls: these start at term 4 for Agility so a 12 term PC will have rolled 9 times to lose a point in agility: obviously when you get down to 1-2 it is less likely that you will fail the roll, but there's a chance that your character dies before war starts. Then there are seven Strength rolls, five Constitution rolls and one Intelligence roll. Granted you can use a secondary term to raise STR or CON but whatever happens to AGL happens.

After term 6 (if you are using v2.2) you're only getting 1 skill point per term unless you change occupations which is pretty gamey if you do it a lot.

Skills of a value higher than the controlling asset cost double: that may lead to skills degrading if STATs are lost. If you had an asset of 7 in Small Arms and a STR of 7 and then dropped a point in STR, a GM may be justified in requiring either a point be spent to bring the Small Arms back to 7 or in having the Small Arms reduced to 6. In my opinion, this skill degradation with age seems fairly realistic to me, particularly for physical skills: I'm not as good a tuba player now as I was when I was young, I can't manage the stamina and physicality even though I know a lot more. In a more physical skill it would probably be worse.

I haven't crunched the maths but an average character I made was down to AGL 1, STR 2 and CON 3 by term 12 and the skills didn't pay back the STAT loss in my opinion. An optimised character fared better but AGL still dropped to 2 and I had to pump skills into keeping my AGL skills up and secondary skills into compensating for STAT loss.

I know that the figures aren't everything, but worrying about a State Guard career is a moot point when your character has limited survivability. I think it would make a great game, a bunch of very experienced PCs using smarts to compensate for the fact they can barely hold a rifle let alone make multiple shots with it but mortality would be crazy high unless they were very clever.

That sounds like a cool game but like the predictions of what the UK Home Guard would have done and the Volkstrum did, it was estimated that Home Guard units with preparation and home advantage would hold enemy units up for hours. Given the lower intensity of TK2 encounters it might be longer but for a PC group of 65+ year olds I'd be more inclined to spend time working out tables for illnesses and conditions rather than what skills they can acquire in the State Guard.

"Old Tom, yup, he'd been a Scout Sniper in 'Nam back in the day, gave the Mexicans hell until his pacemaker ran out. Still, he held that column off for long enough for the boys to get the insulin shipment back to base, it saved darn near most of the squad."

"Most of the Lot What Lot"

"I said SQUAD!!!"

"There's no need to shout, now how are we going to spring that cataract doc from the POW camp, we need that young whippersnapper or Third Platoon are gonna need to shift to shotguns."

"Nice buns Thanks, I still exercise every day."

"I said SHOTGUNS!!!"

"Now who's shouting Anyway, a bayonet will be good enough, they don't like it up 'em you know. They don't like it up 'em."

Good luck with a game like that if you run it, it has potential to be the best game ever: TK2 meets Burrows and Bunnies, I envy you playing it.

[Raellus]

Yeah, I think you're right. 1 State Guard specific secondary activity skill point would be a more accurate reflection of peacetime SG activities.

[The Dark]

It's dose not matter what the State Guard look like prior to pre-TW2000 as the PC are generated after war starts.

II don't really agree with this, because (in 2.2 timeline) the US only gets involved in the war in 1996, and the 1996-2000 period is the post-draft portion of character generation (i.e. the character's last rolled term ends in 1996). So, take a character who serves two terms in the infantry, then six terms in state/local law enforcement with State Guard as a secondary, then gets drafted back into the State Guard. This guy was born in 1947, served with the military from '64-72, and was in the State Guard from '72-00. Except for the Welcome to Hell term, it's entirely pre-war State Guard.

Take a look at the basic rules and character generation, you see plenty of restrictions for certain career paths. Those are in place to add realism to character generation. You can't use the regular rules, cause you won't end up with character you expect to see in the guard. Which are old men unfit for combat, but with a sense to service.

Look at the State Guard during WWII and the UK Home Guard of how you see them organized and trained on the fly and into a some what military force.

I'm not going for a regular army.....more like Dad's Army

That's perfectly fine, but to me it doesn't seem to fit with by-the-book T2K, where a character could theoretically have joined the State Guard as early as 1956 (10 term character who joins straight out of high school - which isn't impossible, since Virginia will take 16 or 17 year old volunteers with parental permission).

Since I hate bringing up problems without proposing a solution, my idea for the pre-war State Guard is that it's similar to being an active National Guard servicemember (receive one skill and roll for promotion), but they choose their skill gain from either the Paramedic list (if they have Medical 2+) or the State/Local Law Enforcement list, to reflect the jobs the State Guard was called on to perform before the war, rather than drawing from their military branch skills. A character does not need to be a veteran to be in the State Guard (though many/most are).

For during-the-war State Guard (i.e. those who are drafted with 8+ terms), veterans (anyone who has already been through basic training) would get double skills on the appropriate list (Paramedic or S/LLE) with Small Arms (Rifle), Ground Vehicle (Wheeled) and Tac Missile being added to their skill list. Veterans roll twice for promotion, but do not get a secondary skill. Non-veterans would get basic training and normal skill points for an appropriate State Guard skill list; they roll once for promotion and do get a secondary skill.

It feels a bit clunky as I write it, but it feels like a valid way to have the State Guard be distinct from the National Guard and to reflect both their pre-war role and the change in role as the war goes on.

[rcaf_777]

State Guard-Naval Militia Officer and Enlisted

State Guard-Naval Militia Officer and Enlisted Career

[The Dark]

State Guard-Naval Militia Officer and Enlisted Career

I would expect State Guard to also get M16EZ kits to free up "real weapons for real soldiers" or some such idea.

[rcaf_777]

I would expect State Guard to also get M16EZ kits to free up "real weapons for real soldiers" or some such idea.

Here is a good article on the M16EZ,

https://shootingdiceblog.wordpress.com/2016/02/25/high-tech-twilight-war/

You might see them some state guards after 1999, but it relies on a MilGov supplied a second-hand barrel, bolt, bolt carrier, and trigger mechanism of an M16 or M16A1, which might not have made out to ever state guard unit in large quantities. These weapons I have here are what might be available to guards units at the beginning of the war. The M16EZ was weapon throw together because large scale weapon manufacturing was unavailable.

Question

With the above parts listed could a gunsmith make a M16EZ if so what kind of skills and tasks are we talking about

[swaghauler]

Here is a good article on the M16EZ,

https://shootingdiceblog.wordpress.com/2016/02/25/high-tech-twilight-war/

You might see them some state guards after 1999, but it relies on a MilGov supplied a second-hand barrel, bolt, bolt carrier, and trigger mechanism of an M16 or M16A1, which might not have made out to ever state guard unit in large quantities. These weapons I have here are what might be available to guards units at the beginning of the war. The M16EZ was weapon throw together because large scale weapon manufacturing was unavailable.

Question

With the above parts listed could a gunsmith make a M16EZ if so what kind of skills and tasks are we talking about

NO. Not only is the kit missing a few crucial pieces such as the precisely sized buffer assembly that rides inside the buffer tube and regulates the rate of speed that the bolt travels back and forth inside the action (by both weight of assembly and spring rate), it is also missing the gas tube (which must PRECISELY fit the barrel vent to properly "gas" the bolt) which isn't too hard to "fab" but a nightmare to fit, the buffer tube (which must closely fit the buffer assembly to prevent binding) and the forward assist (which must be precisely fit to prevent "outgassing" and to mesh with the "contact grooves" on the bolt where it contacts said bolt). You can "delete" the forward assist, but you'd have to change the right side of the receiver to "seal" the hole that the forward assist travels in.

Finally, the M16 has a forged aluminum receiver. You could machine a steel receiver or investment cast a receiver, but if you have this technology, you can just make a NEW M16. The internal structure of an M16 receiver has some VERY complex machined cutouts that really require a CNC machine. This means NO stamped and welded sheet metal receivers like you can do with an AK or FAL (and like H&K actually used on the G3 series). This is why the AR-18 was designed...to give third world countries with only rudimentary technology a rifle that they could manufacture using "old school" metal fabricating tools. Parts guns would (and currently do) exist. This is where parts from several broken rifles are combined to make a functional rifle. You still need a serviceable receiver for this. In fact, GDW got this backward. It would be easier to send the bolt/buffer group and the receiver and have the local guys add everything else.

You would see a return of the "tube steel" guns like the M3 "Grease Gun" and the STEN Gun. This is greatest (and the most overlooked) asset of these weapons. You can crank them out in a shop with a press break, lathe, and a welder from common tube steel.

[swaghauler]

This thread brings up an interesting argument in the Twilight2000 timeline. There is this "idea" that frequently surfaces that people would be running around with home-made muskets because all of the firearms and ammunition were either used up or destroyed.

Both the US and Russia have enough small arms stockpiled to re-equip their armies THREE TIMES (although the M1, Mosin, and SKS would probably make an appearance in the third round). I did a rifle count at Ft. Indiantown Gap in the early 1990's for COG (continuity of government). There were 25K M16s (all M16A1s), 10K M14s, 1K M60s, and 1K assorted pistols (M1911s & .38 Model 10s) in this ONE site. There would also be a great number of "battlefield pickups" floating around to arm new recruits with. Finally, the US civilian population has HUGE numbers of both paramilitary and hunting rifles to draw on.
Since the Exchange was of only a limited nature, many of these "stockpiles" would still be intact.

Heavy weapons would be another story, though. From the beginning, this would be a "come as you are" or "bring what you got" war (with regards to the high-tech machines) The time it takes to assemble an M1 Abrams, M109 Paladin, or any jet in the modern age would preclude anything more than replacing "battlefield casualties" during the war. This means that older vehicles would be put back in service to cover losses or equip second line troops fairly quickly.

[.45cultist]

This thread brings up an interesting argument in the Twilight2000 timeline. There is this "idea" that frequently surfaces that people would be running around with home-made muskets because all of the firearms and ammunition were either used up or destroyed.

Both the US and Russia have enough small arms stockpiled to re-equip their armies THREE TIMES (although the M1, Mosin, and SKS would probably make an appearance in the third round). I did a rifle count at Ft. Indiantown Gap in the early 1990's for COG (continuity of government). There were 25K M16s (all M16A1s), 10K M14s, 1K M60s, and 1K assorted pistols (M1911s & .38 Model 10s) in this ONE site. There would also be a great number of "battlefield pickups" floating around to arm new recruits with. Finally, the US civilian population has HUGE numbers of both paramilitary and hunting rifles to draw on.
Since the Exchange was of only a limited nature, many of these "stockpiles" would still be intact.

Heavy weapons would be another story, though. From the beginning, this would be a "come as you are" or "bring what you got" war (with regards to the high-tech machines) The time it takes to assemble an M1 Abrams, M109 Paladin, or any jet in the modern age would preclude anything more than replacing "battlefield casualties" during the war. This means that older vehicles would be put back in service to cover losses or equip second line troops fairly quickly.

I've never understood that either. Also instead of the 1st ed M16EZ, AR15 lowers no longer have blocks, salvage the best select fire parts and "drop in" AR15's if you need select fire. For Postwar units, one or two select fire rifles to assist in suppression fire roles per squad might be standard.

[The Dark]

This thread brings up an interesting argument in the Twilight2000 timeline. There is this "idea" that frequently surfaces that people would be running around with home-made muskets because all of the firearms and ammunition were either used up or destroyed.

Both the US and Russia have enough small arms stockpiled to re-equip their armies THREE TIMES (although the M1, Mosin, and SKS would probably make an appearance in the third round). I did a rifle count at Ft. Indiantown Gap in the early 1990's for COG (continuity of government). There were 25K M16s (all M16A1s), 10K M14s, 1K M60s, and 1K assorted pistols (M1911s & .38 Model 10s) in this ONE site. There would also be a great number of "battlefield pickups" floating around to arm new recruits with. Finally, the US civilian population has HUGE numbers of both paramilitary and hunting rifles to draw on.
Since the Exchange was of only a limited nature, many of these "stockpiles" would still be intact.

Heavy weapons would be another story, though. From the beginning, this would be a "come as you are" or "bring what you got" war (with regards to the high-tech machines) The time it takes to assemble an M1 Abrams, M109 Paladin, or any jet in the modern age would preclude anything more than replacing "battlefield casualties" during the war. This means that older vehicles would be put back in service to cover losses or equip second line troops fairly quickly.

For number of arms, in 2013 the United States advised the Small Arms Survey that they had 2,700,000 total military small arms; in 2010, there were 1.43 million active service members, so the numbers provided suggest around 2 firearms per service member on average, not including reservists. This is probably a little low, since other trinitarian militaries were around 2.5. Typical proportions of arms globally were found to be 72% selective-fire rifles, 13% pistols, 9% machineguns, and 6% other. I would expect the Twilight War military to be slightly higher, both due to having more servicemembers and (probably) a higher proportion of gunseople.

More importantly, though, military caliber ammunition could become a problem within a fairly brief time. Unless something has changed in the past few years, Lake City (Missouri) produces all the 5.56mm, 7.62mm, and 12.7mm for the military (I think 20mm also, but I never was involved in procuring that). Now, the stockpiles are likely in the billions of rounds (the number's classified, but the DoD regularly transfers millions of rounds to other agencies like the FBI or Marshal Service for their training without batting an eye, which gives at least a rough feel for how vast the number must be), but even if most aren't hit by the Exchange, distribution is still going to be a PITA in the post-apocalypse. I agree with the upthread comment that selective fire would likely be eliminated from most weapons in order to conserve ammo, and there'd probably also be a push to include the more common civilian calibers among second-tier units.

[rcaf_777]

I built this AK-47 and it's legal and totally untraceable

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/05/ak-47-semi-automatic-rifle-building-party

Another Option

[CDAT]

For number of arms, in 2013 the United States advised the Small Arms Survey that they had 2,700,000 total military small arms; in 2010, there were 1.43 million active service members, so the numbers provided suggest around 2 firearms per service member on average, not including reservists. This is probably a little low, since other trinitarian militaries were around 2.5. Typical proportions of arms globally were found to be 72% selective-fire rifles, 13% pistols, 9% machineguns, and 6% other. I would expect the Twilight War military to be slightly higher, both due to having more servicemembers and (probably) a higher proportion of gunseople.

As for number of weapons per service member I do not know if they count the M203 as a separate weapon from the AR that it is attached to or not, but regardless some groups have many more weapons that others. For example my last years in I was EOD my three man team had one M4 each, two M203's, one M14, one M82, one M249, one M240, and officially one M9 for the team (but when we deployed we had one each). This gave our three man team between ten and twelve weapons for the team. There were nine teams just like mine in the company not counting the command/supply elements. Now yes we are still talking about lots of weapons but how many teams like this would it take to make up the numbers of weapons listed

More importantly, though, military caliber ammunition could become a problem within a fairly brief time. Unless something has changed in the past few years, Lake City (Missouri) produces all the 5.56mm, 7.62mm, and 12.7mm for the military (I think 20mm also, but I never was involved in procuring that). Now, the stockpiles are likely in the billions of rounds (the number's classified, but the DoD regularly transfers millions of rounds to other agencies like the FBI or Marshal Service for their training without batting an eye, which gives at least a rough feel for how vast the number must be), but even if most aren't hit by the Exchange, distribution is still going to be a PITA in the post-apocalypse. I agree with the upthread comment that selective fire would likely be eliminated from most weapons in order to conserve ammo, and there'd probably also be a push to include the more common civilian calibers among second-tier units.

I have no idea about the ammo made and all that, but I do know that I have received in Iraq .50 Cal ammo with 1945 date stamp on it. I assume that it is a case of using the oldest first, but also know what happens when you assume. I would guess that old WWII ammo weapons (.45 ACP, .30-06, maybe even .30 carbine) would have surplus ammo, the newer rounds (5.56, and 7.62) would be more likely to run out early.