Possible Module Followups

[mpipes]

I think most of us all regarded HW as completely unworkable and unrealistic on a lot of levels. I basically ignored it for most part.

[Olefin]

definitely have ideas for followups - but I am in the dilemma where to be able to write something plausible and fun for players I may have to modify canon to do it - and I dont mean a simple mod like bringing the 2nd AD to Africa for Kenya but instead basically say "no the 40th didnt break up in CA" or "no MilGov wasnt stupid and wasted 43000 men they brought home at the cost of literally almost all the remaining US AFV's"

even something as simple as using bucket brigades and horses or people dragging carts with water tanks on them to bring water out of rivers for irrigation - which given the huge amount of people who knew that its either do this or starve would have done it - i.e. you dont need electricity and oil to irrigate fields - they have been doing it for over seven thousand years that we know of if not longer - and yes its backbreaking work and really labor intensive - but you dont starve to death - and thats exactly why the US military would be recruiting - to be able to guard those laborers and get their crops in and keep marauders away while they do it

[mpipes]

An idea----

Rework HW into something half way realistic. I just don't buy things getting so desperate in the US it ends up worse than Poland, which was badly depopulated by DOZENS of tactical nuclear weapons and constant war over 5 years.

[Olefin]

talking to Marc - HW is canon but he is open to some mods to the canon - so will see what can be done - I think Loren went way way way too far - and ignored many of the previous modules as to dates and events in them that HW is contradicting - and any canon is only as good as its relevance to earlier releases - so if Ozarks is released earlier and contradicts HW then HW can be overruled in that aspect

Ozarks basically states that the 49th is intact and that Armies of the Night succeeded in MilGov being able to at least get some foothold into NYC as to where the characters might have come from to play it - plus the timeline clearly is different then what is in HW - so there is precedent for saying HW can be ignored in some ways based on previous canon to some extent

[cawest]

talking to Marc - HW is canon but he is open to some mods to the canon - so will see what can be done - I think Loren went way way way too far - and ignored many of the previous modules as to dates and events in them that HW is contradicting - and any canon is only as good as its relevance to earlier releases - so if Ozarks is released earlier and contradicts HW then HW can be overruled in that aspect

Ozarks basically states that the 49th is intact and that Armies of the Night succeeded in MilGov being able to at least get some foothold into NYC as to where the characters might have come from to play it - plus the timeline clearly is different then what is in HW - so there is precedent for saying HW can be ignored in some ways based on previous canon to some extent

I'm sure what ever you do to HW to fix the huge list of issues would be great... IE i would get a copy of it (if it was fixed) and i'm not an active player. could you list it as HWv2 or HW updated

[Olefin]

I dont think you will ever see an official HW revision or modification except fan canon like my Olefin Universe thread - but having followups released that follow other earlier released canon modules as to timeline and events and thus "correct" HW is a distinct possibility - i.e. like having the aforementioned 28th Infantry march as a unit to PA to try to put the state back together

Or for that matter the fact that HW was published before the Last Submarine Trilogy was completed - and thus had no mention whatsoever of the sub making it home with the two scientists and their way to generate power - that is a big possible change right there

Boomer was released several months after HW by Loren - he had to be working on it at the same time - that omission is a big one for sure in HW - getting even a single power station of that type on line means you have power to pump water out of rivers or underground reservoirs, recharge batteries, etc. - and they would be getting home in time to make a big difference in the timeline

obviously he couldnt put it in HW about the end of Boomer - both Med Cruise and Boomer were still in development and hadnt been released - getting that sub home with those scientists is a game and timeline changer - so right there is one way to change and update HW "legally" - because those events definitely occur AFTER April 2001

[mpipes]

Olefin...

That reminds me of one of the big problems I had with HW, and the Twilight 2000 setting...nuclear power plants.

These were situated away from other targets and would have been vital for recovery efforts. No need to drill for oil and gas. I've always seen these a priority for governments (national, regional, local) to secure and protect and use as bases for recovery efforts.

[ArmySGT.]

Even if you accept the (completely unrealistic) drought as canon and its effects on the US and try go forward from there the simple fact is that the history of the American units in the US is frankly nonsensical - especially considering that it has multiple MilGov units basically melting away and disappearing between June 2000 and April 2001 - when if anything those units would be getting bigger either by adding reinforcements from Europe or by recruiting locally since the best way to stay alive in a low food environment would be to join the military similar to what happened in Krakow

Not unrealistic. Completely in line with military history right up to modern times. For America you can use the Revolution (Valley Forge) and The Civil War (Union Forces in the first two years, Confederate in the second).

When the soldiers are not paid or fed they desert. Some slip off with their equipment and become criminals. Some take their stuff and go home, like literally home, to be with and take care of their families. Some changes sides, since if the enemy is paying their troops and feeding their troops something must be right.

Your also not factoring in disease. By 98 large scale pharmaceutical manufacturing is lost and tender 20 century immune systems are not up to the challenges of dysentery, cholera, typhus, and other diseases. Even a small outbreak and a few rumors of disease would turn small desertion into large desertion with troops stealing vehicles plus supplies to get far away.

Last, racial tensions. Minorities are a larger percentage of Services than represented in the larger civil population.

Military history of every kind of campaign anywhere in the world shows us multiples examples of desertion fading armies into small pitiful war bands.

[Olefin]

Some desertion sure - 80 and 90 percent No way - especially since staying together means you can protect the food you are growing and can beat off marauders and desperate people looking for food

and in this case they would be getting fed - i.e. they are in cantonments and getting fed thru that whole period - its not till after April that it becomes apparent there is going to be a big time problem with getting food -

look at A Rock in Troubled Waters - per that article there is no problem feeding the soldiers and civilians in southern NJ - and they have comparatively easy duty with the State Militia to back them up - and yet they desert in huge numbers compared to say the 43rd who was surrounded on all sides by marauders and hostile forces but still was in pretty good shape right up to the April 2001 mutiny

and if anything after it was known that food was going to be tight it would be a bigger incentive to hang together - good luck keeping any food you grow if its you and your M-16 at your family farm holding off thousands of hungry people

on the other hand 1000 massed M-16's protecting the fields and food supplies in your cantonment probably would do the job easily

[The Dark]

I can see both sides of the argument. On the pro-desertion side, when these guys hear things are going to hell in a handbasket, a lot of them are going to want to get back to their families, similar to how the rate of desertion of Georgian troops in the US Civil War spiked during and after Sherman's siege of Atlanta. In the Appalachians, there were instances of deserters from the Confederate Army forming their own units that fought off Confederate regulars. A historical study of the deserters found there were two common factors that led to desertion: hardship among their families and finding out their home district wasn't united in support of the effort. With the MilGov/CivGov split (and New America), there's likely to be wavering support in many districts, and severe hardship among soldiers' families, which will cause desertion higher than usual. I don't know if it would reach 80-90%, but given that the Soviet Border Troops had 60-80% desertion rates during the Afghanistan War, it's likely it would be much higher than most people would suspect.

[ArmySGT.]

Some desertion sure - 80 and 90 percent No way - especially since staying together means you can protect the food you are growing and can beat off marauders and desperate people looking for food

Easily.. 90 percent... Napoleons campaign into Russia. These units your talking about as "Divisions" with that number are a Division on paper. A company is approximately 100 men. A Battalion is 3 to 5 companies (CA 3 and CS or CSS 5), a Brigade is 3 to five battalions..... These "Divisions" are below the operational strength of a Brigade. Their already broken, demoralized, under trained, under staffed, and without Corps or Army commands to make even the suggestion of Orders.

Why stay These troops are in the Continental U.S. and probably desperate for news about family after the TDM and with the drought. A unit this size goes through tons (literal tons) of food and fuel per day. What ever rations they have are coming from somewhere else because in less than a month a unit that size will have consumed every scrap of food and eaten the livestock.

Grow food Who is doing that for them These guys grew up in NY, LA, Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Dallas, Houston, San Francisco, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Nashville, etc, etc, etc... The 18 - 30 year olds have never ever grow anything let alone seen a garden. Before you think "Ah ha! Someone comes from somewhere food grows". The overwhelming majority of the services are low income urban kids. The small town kids you hope could grow something came from towns, not farms. Even the kids that grew up on farms joined the Army to get away from that. They can drive the tractor, but probably know little about seed, planting, maintaining, and harvest.

The only way anyone of these "Divisions" is growing food is to enslave the locals or barter for the locals to grow it (aka extortion).

"and in this case they would be getting fed - i.e. they are in cantonments and getting fed thru that whole period - its not till after April that it becomes apparent there is going to be a big time problem with getting food - "

Fed what Three squares There is being fed and then being fed.... For 54 days in 2003 I ate two MREs a day because the supply chain couldn't keep up and the trucks essentially mugged by units before they reached us. Is that fed Yeah. I hate peanuts and peanut anything to this day.

Troops are getting fed and if you ask a Soldier anywhere, chow sucks. Food is probably the number one morale item. Lots of food and lots of variety prepared better than a 5 star steakhouse and don't skimp on any trimmings.

Now in this.. Boiled potatoes, soup, bread, and butter is fed. Troops down at the bottom, the Privates and Corporals have no idea and no thought to next month. Their immediate concerns are today and tomorrow (when do we quit, when do we eat, when can I drink, what time do I have to be back) not April, May, June or any other date.

Getting food is on the G3, and each layer of S3 below that guy. Those guys probably have to move about with bodyguards by this point.

look at A Rock in Troubled Waters - per that article there is no problem feeding the soldiers and civilians in southern NJ - and they have comparatively easy duty with the State Militia to back them up - and yet they desert in huge numbers compared to say the 43rd who was surrounded on all sides by marauders and hostile forces but still was in pretty good shape right up to the April 2001 mutiny

Being on the coast those troops are probably damned tired of cod, but love those virginia hams. NJ borders Maryland, Pennsylvania, and New York city so benefits from the Pennsylvania Dutch, and trade still coming to the docks in NJ and NYC. Not being landlocked is probably the secret to that success.

and if anything after it was known that food was going to be tight it would be a bigger incentive to hang together - good luck keeping any food you grow if its you and your M-16 at your family farm holding off thousands of hungry people

6-8 people in a log stockade can hold off hundreds on foot. Even with bow saws and not chainsaws a frontier fort can go up quickly. Farm animals on the ground floor is free heat to the humans on the second and third floors. People have been doing this for centuries. More over those are people you know and can count on (mostly) who aren't going to desert you or throw you out.

on the other hand 1000 massed M-16's protecting the fields and food supplies in your cantonment probably would do the job easily

Oh yeah... 1000 rifles in the hands of 18 year olds with impulse control issues that hate being told what to do and hate their squad leader, platoon leader, and LT because he is white, black, hispanic, asian, northern, southern, red neck, cholo, ghetto, ignorant, too smart, etc, etc.

Doubt that. Snuffy is going to take his pack and his rifle and go home even if he has to walk there. That 1000 other guys isn't family and few of them friends.

The only thing keeping Pvt Snuffy from deserting really is the very real threat of death by hanging if he is caught after deserting.

[Olefin]

Those guys have been growing their own food for quite a while - the basic supply system broke down in 1998 and they have been growing their own since 1999 - so even if they are city dwellers they would either have gotten used to planting their own crops or they would have found people to do it for them while they guarded them - which is another argument against them going over the hill - i.e. if they didnt know how to grow food good luck surviving on their own

As for the 78th - they werent getting any food coming in from NYC - and as A Rock In Troubled Waters states the Amish areas (Lancaster PA is mentioned specifically and thats where they are) were overrun by refugees and basically on the edge of starvation - meaning they werent getting any food from there - and HW does say the Amish basically got wiped out - thus the area around them is basically starving while they are getting fed and no one is hungry in their area - thus deserting makes no sense - versus say being based in West Texas where any drought means pretty quickly you are eating your own leather shoes after the last of the rations runs out

So again 80-90 percent desertion rates when a) they are growing their own food and able to feed themselves and defend that food when going AWOL means you might starve and b) the areas around you are overrun with marauder and bandit and cannibal groups that love to pick off small encampments and family groups - which you would know after seeing that happen ever since 1999 - is definitely not realistic

[Olefin]

its very interesting how much Twilight 2000 and its fan base is split up like the Christian church is - with the Howling Wilderness/Kidnapped defenders in many ways being like the born again Protestants who defend every word in the Bible as being canonical no matter what it says even if it contradicts itself

Meanwhile those who dont want to use HW and Kidnapped or argue for changes in them in many ways are more like those in the Church who are more willing to accept that perhaps some areas of the Bible may have issues, either from translation or who actually authored them and need to discussed and debated to determine those particular areas of validity within the overall Church canon

i.e. to use an example - those who see HW and Kidnapped as canon and have no issues with it even if it contradicts earlier canon versus those who see that the drought as described would have killed off the US for good and there would have been no MilGov and CivGov to make peace in 2020 (Traveler 2300AD timeline canon which came from the Great Game) let alone the contradictions in HW to earlier canon releases that they say should be resolved in a possible re-release or correction

And FYI - one reason I have argued over the years for an update to HW is that there are modules released after it came out that could radically change its proposed history - getting the sub home with those two scientists means you have a nuclear sub to generate power and electricity somewhere on the US East Coast (not mentioned in HW) and you have two scientists in the US that can make cheap fusion reactors with materials that could be scavenged (definitely not mentioned in HW) - let alone getting the weather satellite data from Satellite down (again not mentioned in HW) - add all those in and the supposed history of 2001 after April could be changed immensely from what Loren wrote

Example of why writing new material can be an issue if you try to please everyone - lets say I did a story where the 28th Infantry (which is the PA National Guard) (who showed up at Bremerhaven organized and following command orders loyal to MilGov and the US Army per canon in Going Hom ) as a body leaves Norfolk, goes to PA and finds some of the other troves mentioned in Allegheny Uprising to equip itself with Bradleys and other vehicles and then starts to stabilize the state - you will have those who will really enjoy that and avidly read it - and others who will cry "not mentioned in HW at all!" and argue that it cannot be considered canon because it wasnt in HW when it was released (even though having the 28th go home to PA is basically common sense)

and for the record I can see both sides of the argument and the validity of both sides and appreciate how both sides feel (as a Christian too - lets say my family encompasses both sides of the Bible argument and it does make for lively discussion)

[mpipes]

I guess I am a heretic!!

I changed what I did not like in the campaign I had/have.

The US was not a total basket case. A LOT of nuclear power plants were intact. The Anniston Army Depot (and a tank plant), Red River Depot, and quite a few refineries in OK and Arkansas/Louisiana were intact. F-16 factory in Ft. Worth undamaged along with F-15 plant in St Louis. The Lima tank plant undamaged. York, Pa vehicle factories untouched.

Overall unit strength was down to about 1/4 pre-war. Average NATO vehicle strength was down by 75% on average with a few units having about 1/3 tank strength. Pact units down to between 10% to 30% vehicle/personnel strength.

Yes, you had a lot of devastation. But I just did not buy into the TOTAL devastation you see in HW. Neither side launched all their nukes. What was launched was a strike aimed at power/energy infrastructure - a limited countervalue strike. Unless you had both sides going for an all out countervalue strike aimed at the populations - cities- A LOT of people, and more importantly, a lot of industry will be unharmed.

I also did not buy 100% into the EMP damage being as severe. Not that it could have been done, but I think technical limitations on the existing ICBM/SLBM force would have limited the ability for either side to get nuclear weapons into optimal positions for the EMP effect contemplated by GDW. I think EMP would have been more localized. Also, a lot of stuff would be stored in metal building that I have often thought of as giant Faraday cages.

[simonmark6]

"It's very interesting how much Twilight 2000 and its fan base is split up like the Christian church is - with the Howling Wilderness/Kidnapped defenders in many ways being like the born again Protestants who defend every word in the Bible as being canonical no matter what it says even if it contradicts itself

Meanwhile those who don't want to use HW and Kidnapped or argue for changes in them in many ways are more like those in the Church who are more willing to accept that perhaps some areas of the Bible may have issues, either from translation or who actually authored them and need to discussed and debated to determine those particular areas of validity within the overall Church canon."

Not really, although trying to reduce a debate to a specious ad hominem false analogy in order to belittle those that disagree with you lowers the strength of your argument somewhat.

Instead of arguing over the validity of the "reality" of a work of fiction that by the nature of the collaborative story-telling element of the art form means that everyone's game will be different and will deviate from canon maybe we should focus on having fun and adding to the body of work so that people can enjoy whatever they want to take from it.

You've already done this with your new sourcebook and I'd suggest hat instead of looking to re-write canon by revisiting modules that exist that we look at expanding the areas covered before we go bac to anything already done.