Long wars and industrial mobilisation

[Olefin]

JLG buiilt the M-ATV

BAE built MRAP's as well

JLG built the cabs for all the M-ATV's and did the assembly work on half the part total M-ATV's built by Oshkosh, assembling complete vehicles that were ready to be shipped. It wasnt a knock down plant they put the complete vehicle together piece by piece, welding it together and then doing all the assembly of all the various pieces.

Plasan was on site working to assist with building the capsules (which is what we called the cabs) along with supplier and JLG personnel.

So yes during that time period the plant was basically a fully operational light armored vehicle manufacturing facility.

FYI - ballistic armor and glass isnt made by any armored vehicle supplier in the US - that armor and glass comes from suppliers - when I was at BAE we had all our armor plate and ballistic glass shipped in - we didnt make it ourselves.

[RN7]

Olefin I'm not questioning what you did at BAE or the manufacturing capabilities of York, but I am trying to figure out what JLG's assembly capabilities are at McConnellsburg.

The reason for this is that JLG designs and builds aerial work platforms, telehandlers and stock piling lifts. It is not a vehicle manufacturer or does it have a history of vehicle manufacturing, or is it even a custom vehicle maker in the traditional sense of the word.

You state that JLG fully assembled the M-ATV at McConnellsburg, and in particular the cab (capsule). But were all the component parts already built before they were shipped for assembly or were they built at McConnellsburg

Assembling a vehicle is a very complicated and costly process, and involves major investment by the manufacturer into an assembly plant including robotic automation.

On automobile assembly lines much of the work is now done by robots rather than humans. In the first stages of automobile manufacture, robots weld the floor pan pieces together and assist workers in placing components such as the suspension onto the chassis. Worker attaches the radiator, and another bolts it into place. Because of the nature of these heavy component parts, articulating robots perform all of the lift and carry operations while assemblers using pneumatic wrenches to bolt component pieces in place

Assembly plants represents only the final phase in the process of manufacturing a vehicle, as all of the thousands of different components supplied by outside suppliers and company-owned parts suppliers are brought together for assembly. Once the component parts are assembled production control specialists track and assign them using vehicle identification numbers, or in some cases a small radio frequency transponder is attached to the chassis and floor pan.

The typical vehicle is constructed from the ground up. The frame forms the base on which the body rests and from which all subsequent assembly components follow. The frame is placed on the assembly line and clamped to the conveyer to prevent shifting as it moves down the line. From here the automobile frame is moved to component assembly areas where complete front and rear suspensions, gas tanks, rear axles and drive shafts, gear boxes, steering box components, wheel drums, and braking systems are installed.

The vehicle's engine is then mated with its transmission, and robotic arms are used to install heavy components inside the engine compartment of the frame.

The floor pan is the largest body component to which a panels and braces will be welded or bolted. As it moves down the assembly line the shell of the vehicle is built. The left and right quarter panels are robotically disengaged from pre-staged shipping containers and placed onto the floor pan, where they are stabilized with positioning fixtures and welded. The front and rear door pillars, roof, and body side panels are assembled in the same fashion. The shell of the automobile assembled in this section of the process lends itself to the use of robots because articulating arms can easily introduce various component braces and panels to the floor pan and perform a high number of weld operations in a time frame and with a degree of accuracy no human workers could ever approach.

The body is built up on a separate assembly line from the chassis. Robots once again perform most of the welding on the various panels, but human workers are necessary to bolt the parts together. Once the body shell is complete, it is attached to an overhead conveyor for the painting process. The multi-step painting process entails inspection, cleaning, undercoat dipping, drying, topcoat spraying, and baking.

Prior to painting, the body must pass through a rigorous inspection process. As the shell exits the cleaning station it goes through more drying, cleaning and painting processes.

The body and chassis assemblies are then mated near the end of the production process. Robotic arms lift the body shell onto the chassis frame, where human workers then bolt the two together. After final components are installed, the vehicle is driven off the assembly line to a quality checkpoint.

This is standard procedure at every major vehicle assembly plant in the world, and the heavier the type of vehicle being built will mean more automation. The fact that we are talking about military vehicles will mean more specification. Obviously some work on military vehicles can only be done by technicians, but component parts still have to be built before they are assembled. If Oshkosh had a contract to build millions or even hundreds of thousands of M-ATV's I could see Oshkosh investing hundreds of millions in developing and expanding JLG's manufacturing and assembling capabilities at McConnellsburg. But less than 10,000 M-ATV's were built, and only a minority of them by JLG.

I'm still finding it hard to list JLG as a major assembly plant.

[Olefin]

We built 1000 cabs a month - meaning full cabs/capsules with the armor protection system from Plasan

We then used 500 of those cabs/capsules - that we had welded together from component parts that were delivered to us by suppliers just like the transmissions and engines and harnesses etc. were delivered to us - per month into full working and running M-ATV

Thats 9 a shift, 25 to 27 each day, 500 a month - fully assembled and delivered with us building 4000 vehicles in the course of a few months

Sorry but 4000 armored vehicles built from the ground up qualifies you as a major assembly plant - and it shows just what the US would have done during the Twilight War

Now this was in 2009 - so for those playing Twilight 2013 if you are looking at adding a possible armored vehicle supplier adventure to your game then JLG's location in McConnellsburg would be definitely an idea

For those playing the Twilight War timeline it is possible - the plant was there - but we werent owned by Oshkosh - we were making military vehicles but they were just material handlers - but something similar could have been done in the timing of the Twilight War that the facility could have been a military producer

FYI RN - military vehicles arent built like autos are - I know I have worked for two companies now that have built them and neither of them do what auto companies do for assembly

[RN7]

We built 1000 cabs a month - meaning full cabs/capsules with the armor protection system from Plasan

We then used 500 of those cabs/capsules - that we had welded together from component parts that were delivered to us by suppliers just like the transmissions and engines and harnesses etc. were delivered to us - per month into full working and running M-ATV

Thats 9 a shift, 25 to 27 each day, 500 a month - fully assembled and delivered with us building 4000 vehicles in the course of a few months

Sorry but 4000 armored vehicles built from the ground up qualifies you as a major assembly plant - and it shows just what the US would have done during the Twilight War

Now this was in 2009 - so for those playing Twilight 2013 if you are looking at adding a possible armored vehicle supplier adventure to your game then JLG's location in McConnellsburg would be definitely an idea

For those playing the Twilight War timeline it is possible - the plant was there - but we werent owned by Oshkosh - we were making military vehicles but they were just material handlers - but something similar could have been done in the timing of the Twilight War that the facility could have been a military producer

FYI RN - military vehicles arent built like autos are - I know I have worked for two companies now that have built them and neither of them do what auto companies do for assembly

So most of the components including the engine block, transmission, axles and suspension and the other parts were already fully built by Oshkosh and the other suppliers and then shipped to you where you assembled them. Then you assembled the cab and some fittings with the armour and completed the vehicle.

This is exactly what a custom builder would do, although in some cases they also modify the vehicle and fit their own equipment. And this is the point that I am trying to make about JLG. JLG is a custom builder, although I am not implying that BAE at York is also a custom builder.

The fact that JLG assembled a relatively large number of vehicles, certainly more than a custom builder would normally build, is to do with the fact that it was doing so on behalf Oshkosh who funded it. Oshkosh and its main suppliers already built the main components at their own factories and then shipped them to JLG and BAE for assembly. Obviously Oshkosh hadn't got the space at their own production lines to assemble and fit out the M-ATV without a major investment of their existing facilities, so they used JLG (which they bought) and also contracted BAE to do this.

[Cdnwolf]

Now why would I mention that - because that shows just how quickly production might have ramped up for the war during the Twilight War that a plant that makes material handlers (i.e. telehandlers) was able to convert to build 1000 MATV cabs and fully assembly 500 MATV's a month in a time consistent with ramping up for the Twilight War - meaning that US war production during the Twilight War if it had happened in reality is probably significantly higher than the canon writers allowed for - thus allowing for more replacement armored vehicles than were seen in the canon

The war at the time of the Battle of Kalisz had been going on for 3 years. That uses up a lot of material. Building the product during optimal conditions would account for your numbers but what happens if the plant had no power Fuel supplies would probably be dwindling. And does anyone know of the total losses to the merchant fleet that was bringing the vehicles to Europe How many vehicles were lost that way

Just my two cents.

[Cdnwolf]

This list is I think a fairly complete list of US (and Canadian) vehicle production facilities. I also have had way to much time on my hands over the past two days!!

The problem with the list is how many were in operation in 1997. General Dynamics didn't start the London Ontario plant until 2003.

The red box was GM Diesel which had owned the lands and buildings at the time and made Locomotives.

[Olefin]

So most of the components including the engine block, transmission, axles and suspension and the other parts were already fully built by Oshkosh and the other suppliers and then shipped to you where you assembled them. Then you assembled the cab and some fittings with the armour and completed the vehicle.

This is exactly what a custom builder would do, although in some cases they also modify the vehicle and fit their own equipment. And this is the point that I am trying to make about JLG. JLG is a custom builder, although I am not implying that BAE at York is also a custom builder.

The fact that JLG assembled a relatively large number of vehicles, certainly more than a custom builder would normally build, is to do with the fact that it was doing so on behalf Oshkosh who funded it. Oshkosh and its main suppliers already built the main components at their own factories and then shipped them to JLG and BAE for assembly. Obviously Oshkosh hadn't got the space at their own production lines to assemble and fit out the M-ATV without a major investment of their existing facilities, so they used JLG (which they bought) and also contracted BAE to do this.

RN7 - you are describing a knock down plant - that is not what JLG did - we built ALL the cabs for the M-ATV that Oshkosh contracted for to the US Govt - i.e. 100% of them - and then we finished the assembly of half of them and sent the other half of the cabs to Oshkosh for them to fully assembly - in other words we assembled the cab and then fitted it out with the engine, transmission, interior, electronics, etc. and built half the M-ATV's that were built by Oshkosh - over 4000 of them

and BAE built their own MRAP's all on their own - they arent part of Oshkosh

[Olefin]

The war at the time of the Battle of Kalisz had been going on for 3 years. That uses up a lot of material. Building the product during optimal conditions would account for your numbers but what happens if the plant had no power Fuel supplies would probably be dwindling. And does anyone know of the total losses to the merchant fleet that was bringing the vehicles to Europe How many vehicles were lost that way

Just my two cents.

we had the plant up and running in less time than it took to go from the US start of being in the war to when the nuke strikes happened in the game - and given the Chinese Russian war most likely the US defense industry would have gone into high gear soon after their war started - even just to be able to supply the Chinese let alone the US

As for shipping material across the ocean yes that is a valid point - but if there was a lot of US war material stuck in the US then they would have made short work of the Mexican Army and any Soviet invaders - frankly the original authors definitely understated the ability of the US to ramp up production and get new vehicles out there let alone get older ones up and running

[RN7]

The problem with the list is how many were in operation in 1997. General Dynamics didn't start the London Ontario plant until 2003.

The red box was GM Diesel which had owned the lands and buildings at the time and made Locomotives.

I did state a few posts up that " This list is for 2017 not 1997".

If you want to look up what was about in 1997 and compare it with what's still around in 2017 or what has been shut down or built since 1997 go ahead. While your at do you know what happened to the FMC plant in San Jose California that built the Bradley back in the 1990's

[RN7]

RN7 - you are describing a knock down plant - that is not what JLG did - we built ALL the cabs for the M-ATV that Oshkosh contracted for to the US Govt - i.e. 100% of them - and then we finished the assembly of half of them and sent the other half of the cabs to Oshkosh for them to fully assembly - in other words we assembled the cab and then fitted it out with the engine, transmission, interior, electronics, etc. and built half the M-ATV's that were built by Oshkosh - over 4000 of them

and BAE built their own MRAP's all on their own - they arent part of Oshkosh

No Olefin I think I'm describing a custom builder, as I think custom work is the closest resemblance to the work that JLG did with the M-ATV. Its a lot more skilled than a knock down plant and I've been implying that over a few posts, but I do not consider JLG to be a large assembly plant. And I know BAE builds its own MRAPS, I stated it in earlier posts.

[pmulcahy11b]

I think JLG would best be termed an assembler.

[RN7]

I think JLG would best be termed an assembler.

What would be your definition of assembler Paul as I really cant figure out what to class JLG as

[RN7]

its interesting how little of the US military production network was actually hit during the nuclear strikes in the canon - i.e. they hit Toledo but not York PA or San Jose CA (i.e. Bradley, M109, M88) and the aircraft plants were barely touched if at all

you would think that it would have been the Soviets number one target with the refineries being number two - i.e. cutting off oil is important but it takes quite a while to get new aircraft and tank production going if you nuke the existing plants

That's a valid point. Soviet nuclear missiles seem to have missed an awful lot of important industrial facilities in America and also in other countries.

[RN7]

In regards to 1997 and 2017 there are some major changes in the structure of the North American auto industry.

The U.S. makes the same number of vehicles (12.1 million) in 2017 as it did back in 1997. Canada makes about the same (2.1 million to 2.2 million), while Mexican production has jumped from 1.3 million to 3.5 million. But the share of the domestic producers has fallen dramatically.

In 1997 the Big Three American producers (GM, Ford, Chrysler) built a total of 9.1 million vehicles in the United States, while Navistar, Paccar and Mack built another 200,000 units. In Canada that figure was 1.7 million for 1997 and just over 700,000 units in Mexico.

Today the Big Three American producers share has fallen to 6.4 million, with just over 100,000 for Navistar, Paccar and Mack. Mack incidentally is now owned by Volvo of Sweden. In Canada its fallen to 1.3 million although its risen to nearly 1.7 million in Mexico. Ford actually makes more vehicles in the U.S. than GM does now.

Foreign owned vehicle production (Japanese, German and Korean) has risen in this period. In the U.S. it was 2.4 million in 1997 and is 5.3 million today. In Canada 350,000 units in 1997 and nearly 1 million today, and in Mexico under 550,000 units in 1997 and is over 1.5 million today.

Also the Germans and Swedes own or build a lot of American heavy vehicle production, and the British through BAE own a big chunk of America's military vehicle manufacturing. So fewer auto assembly plants in the U.S today than in 1997, at least American owned ones.

[unkated]

http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/sierra-army-depot

This was my favorite part: "Pending an anachronistic World War II-style armor clash on the European plains....."

... since that's exactly what we're talking about.

Uncle Ted