The 40th Infantry Division

[Olefin]

And rich enough to have made some provision for a potential outbreak of war.

Considering the money he had and the connections he had you know he spent 1995-1997 preparing for what was coming - and getting ready to defend his collection against all comers

[pmulcahy11b]

I once GMed a Brigade-sized unit raised after the TDM; players were drafted into the US Army, but told to bring their own weapons if they had any, ammunition if they had any, food, personal gear, and personal effects. Once they got to the mobilization point, they were issued uniforms and if necessary small arms, rocket launchers, food and personal effects, and vehicles. They they were used as a "hit team" by MilGov for certain special missions.

Needless to say, I put this campaign premise together primarily to allow players to equip their PCs in any way they chose, to the point of exotic weaponry and gear. The players could also be developed in any way they chose, without regard to their being veterans (though they did survive TDM and the chaos afterward). The campaign's starting date was late 2001, and it took place in the US under MilGov auspices.

[ArmySGT.]

Oh I bet there is all kinds of stuff still in army depots - and considering Littlefield's resources (and that fact that the tanks had live barrels) I can bet that he had at least some live shells to go with them - and by 2001 even a couple of dozen shells a piece isnt bad considering that outside of vehicles issued to parties for starting campaigns you dont see many out there with full ammo loads (unless they are only armed with machine guns or very common rounds like for the M1 that they made untold numbers of shells for)

and yes having an adventure to find ammo stored away in an old depot sounds like a very good idea indeed

and there is even a great place to do so in CA - i.e. the Sierra Army Depot in Herlong, CA

The Federal government doesn't even allow the National Guard to store available ammunition above 7.62N.

The State of California sure isnt going to let a civilian have hundreds of rounds of tank or artillery ammunition.

Anything over .50 BMG is regulated by the ATF and has to be purchased as a Destructive Device. Every single one of them on a Form 1 with stamp or it is Federal prison time for person in possession.

The required by Federal Law safeguards alone are cost prohibitive and failing to secure them properly is fines and possible jail too.

To say that Littlefield would have more than props or training/practice munitions is a huge stretch.

The man died of cancer.... There is no reason for that to be different in an alternate timeline with no different medical institutions.

[ArmySGT.]

The main thing I have as a concern about WWII-early Cold War vehicles is this: maintenance. Is it worth the trouble What would be more readily available replacement parts for existing vehicles for the division or this stuff

Bluntly, NO.

It takes months to train people, whether that is a tanker or a mechanic.

That and the WW2 stuff is over matched by the Mexican Infantry fighting vehicles.

The hull front has 51mm of armor and the sides have 38mm.

The 20mmx139mm RH202 on the Mexican IFVs defeats 55m with older DM43 AP-i ammo and 60mm DM63 APDS, even newer defeats more than 70mm of rolled homogeneous armor (RHA) the cast steel stuff before the 1970s composites entered the scene.

Worse for the Sherman. It has a day only range finder and no weapons stabilization.

Anything the Mexians have has 2 axis weapon stabilization, passive IR at a minimum, and a laser range finder. The IFV would be making hits of the Sherman while moving and the Sherman has to stop for the gunner to even try.

20mm is the smallest gun, there is a jump up to 25mm on the DN1, and the ERC - 90 has a 90mm with HEAT ammunition. They have all the same advantages over the Sherman too.

This is without the Infantry dismounted using their 40mm grenade launchers to smoke and blind the Sherman or HEPD (50mm penetration) to kill it. The units Carl Gustaf 84mm recoilless Rifles, or Unit M40A1 106mm Recoilless rifles. All the while with a Forward Observer bringing down 105mm artillery shells that will blast through a Sherman's 25mm of roof armor.

This is important due to the Shermans all in the hull design. There is no anti spall liner, armored munitions compartment, or even separation from the fuel. A hull penetration means fire and probably an ammunition detonation.

The M8 has even less armor and the same handicaps.

The stuff in the museum that is late 60s and 70s is the best option. American so there is ammunition, parts, and most importantly people who would have some training to use it. A tank is a big paper weight without a trained crew. Training for just a simple tanker private, whose first job is loader takes weeks at Ft Knox. An experienced Tank Commander is years in the making on something familiar and with frequent drill.

Then you run into problems like the radios are not able to work with the modern 80s and 90s radios.

[Olefin]

The Federal government doesn't even allow the National Guard to store available ammunition above 7.62N.

The State of California sure isnt going to let a civilian have hundreds of rounds of tank or artillery ammunition.

Anything over .50 BMG is regulated by the ATF and has to be purchased as a Destructive Device. Every single one of them on a Form 1 with stamp or it is Federal prison time for person in possession.

The required by Federal Law safeguards alone are cost prohibitive and failing to secure them properly is fines and possible jail too.

To say that Littlefield would have more than props or training/practice munitions is a huge stretch.

The man died of cancer.... There is no reason for that to be different in an alternate timeline with no different medical institutions.

And Littlefield had tanks with live barrels - and he didnt die from cancer till long after the V1 and V2 timeline - he died in January of 2009 after a decade long battle with colon cancer - would he be sick as hell yes - but in April of 2001 he would be alive -

And who said anything about hundreds of rounds of tank ammo - hell the US Army by April of 2001 would be lucky to have hundreds of rounds of tank ammo

Also you can buy and sell live main gun tanks rounds in the US - all you have to do is register it as a destructive device and pay the $200 transfer tax for every round of ammunition being sold to you. Littlefield was a multi-millionaire - he could easily pay that tax. Again the law states that you need a separate NFA title II tax stamp for each machine gun and cannon, and a permit for each explosive shell (explosive shell for the cannon). Now I can see why regular people would think that tax is cost prohibitive - but do the math - 200 main gun rounds at 200 bucks per round comes out to 40,000 bucks - i.e. enough rounds for the tanks he had with live barrels to fill their ammo racks - which for Littlefield would have been chump change - we arent talking about going to war for years here

And ArmySgt tank rounds are completely and totally LEGAL in the state of California - even today in 2018 let alone back in the 1990's

https://3gtactical.com/nfa/nfa-state-restrictions

I know its hard to believe but they are - you can own anything in California - all you need to do is have the license and pay the fee- and state that you will not fire the rounds or the destructive device

which means he could have as much live ammo as he wanted to - and I highly doubt by April/May of 2001 that anyone would be coming to arrest him for having live ammo or firing it - especially since the state had been invaded by the Mexicans

11 CCR 4128
(a) Except as provided in sections 30900 through 30945, 31050, 31055, and 31100 of the Penal Code, no person shall possess, transport, or sell any dangerous weapon in this state unless he/she has been granted a license and/or permit pursuant to these regulations.
(b) No license or permit shall be issued to any applicant who fails to establish good cause for such license or permit and that such license or permit would not endanger the public safety.
(c) To establish good cause, an applicant must provide the DOJ with clear and convincing evidence that there is a bona fide market or public necessity for the issuance of a dangerous weapons license or permit and that the applicant can satisfy that need without endangering public safety. Except as provided by Penal Code section 33300, good causes recognized by the DOJ to establish a bona fide necessity for issuance of dangerous weapons licenses or permits include the following:
(4) Possession for the purpose of maintaining a collection of destructive devices as defined in Penal Code section 16460 but such possession shall not be allowed for short-barreled shotguns, short-barreled rifles, machineguns or assault weapons.
(d) No license or permit shall be issued to any applicant who fails to comply with local zoning restrictions or local fire-protective services regulations or ordinances.
(e) The DOJ shall provide a notice of each license or permit issued to the Chief of Police or Sheriff having jurisdiction over the licensee or permittee's location. Copies of outstanding licenses and permits shall be provided to the Chief or Sheriff of jurisdiction upon request.

11 CCR 4135
(a) Documentation required to determine bona fide necessity for collecting destructive devices includes the following:
(1) A written statement from applicant certifying that he is a bona fide collector of destructive devices. The statement must identify the weapons or ordnance of interest to the collector and an estimate of the intended size of the collection.
(2) A written statement from applicant certifying that the weapon or ordinance will not be fired or discharged.

[mpipes]

And he had the bucks to set up his production if he was so inclined!

Of note, AP rounds would not have cost anything to register.

While we are straying a bit of the subject, there are hundreds of muzzle loading cannons owned by collectors all over the US. Know a guy that uses coke cans filled with cement to shoot in his 12 pounder. Perfectly legal to own and no requirement to register with ATF. Same for Gatling guns.

[Olefin]

and what is the big problem with radios - remove the radio from a non-operational vehicle - install into your M60A1, M60A2 or Centurion Mk13 - fill with shells from US Army depot - go out and kick ass - sounds simple to me - and considering we are talking V1 here there would still be rounds in storage for tanks like the M47 as well

[StainlessSteelCynic]

There is a problem with trying to fit more modern radios into the older vehicles and it's a real pain in the rear - electrical system & fittings.
To fit a more modern radio into the older vehicle you might very well have to replace all the electrical/power system that would be used by the radio. That's even before we start talking about compatible fittings to connect to the power supply and antenna.

It would be far easier to take infantry backpack radios and stick the antenna out the hatch... with all the problems that gives when under fire.

[ArmySGT.]

There is a problem with trying to fit more modern radios into the older vehicles and it's a real pain in the rear - electrical system & fittings.
To fit a more modern radio into the older vehicle you might very well have to replace all the electrical/power system that would be used by the radio. That's even before we start talking about compatible fittings to connect to the power supply and antenna.

It would be far easier to take infantry backpack radios and stick the antenna out the hatch... with all the problems that gives when under fire.

Exactly. Power supply, mounts, fittings, voltage, amperage, antenna.

It is a whole system. The radio mount isn't just a frame. Every goes through the mount and then the radio. Cables, antennas, even the Hertz from the power supply has to be compatible or it does not work.

[ArmySGT.]

And he had the bucks to set up his production if he was so inclined!

Of note, AP rounds would not have cost anything to register.

While we are straying a bit of the subject, there are hundreds of muzzle loading cannons owned by collectors all over the US. Know a guy that uses coke cans filled with cement to shoot in his 12 pounder. Perfectly legal to own and no requirement to register with ATF. Same for Gatling guns.

AP rounds still do. It is a shell, round with case..

Form 1 with a $200 attached, then wait for Federal approval from the ATF. Sale and transfer can still be blocked by the State.

Has to be stored secure in a shelter that is fire proof.

Production that is thousands of dollars in fees to get the explosive licenses and manufacturing licenses for a hobby.

[ArmySGT.]

And Littlefield had tanks with live barrels - and he didnt die from cancer till long after the V1 and V2 timeline - he died in January of 2009 after a decade long battle with colon cancer - would he be sick as hell yes - but in April of 2001 he would be alive -

And who said anything about hundreds of rounds of tank ammo - hell the US Army by April of 2001 would be lucky to have hundreds of rounds of tank ammo

Also you can buy and sell live main gun tanks rounds in the US - all you have to do is register it as a destructive device and pay the $200 transfer tax for every round of ammunition being sold to you. Littlefield was a multi-millionaire - he could easily pay that tax. Again the law states that you need a separate NFA title II tax stamp for each machine gun and cannon, and a permit for each explosive shell (explosive shell for the cannon). Now I can see why regular people would think that tax is cost prohibitive - but do the math - 200 main gun rounds at 200 bucks per round comes out to 40,000 bucks - i.e. enough rounds for the tanks he had with live barrels to fill their ammo racks - which for Littlefield would have been chump change - we arent talking about going to war for years here

And ArmySgt tank rounds are completely and totally LEGAL in the state of California - even today in 2018 let alone back in the 1990's

The State of California and the Federal government would not allow that many rounds in the possession of a private citizen.

The State and the Federal do not have to approve sale.

Millionaires don't stay millionaires spending their money.

Then there is the costs for live ammunition in calibers not produced any longer or quality and safety of them either.

[Olefin]

He spent money like crazy on his collection - thats a matter of public record - it was his love and joy. Basically money was no object.

And the Feds and the State allow that kind of purchase all the time - all you need is the money to pay for the rounds, a safe place to keep them and in CA a promise not to fire them - thats it.

There are multiple places in the US that you can fire a tank gun with real live tank rounds - rounds that were bought legally and fired legally.

As for the ammo being out of production - the only tanks that would be a real issue would be the Conqueror and the M103 - and if there are live rounds they would be in CA - because the last operator of the gun that fired that ammo was the USMC and they had that ammo cached in Barstow - they both fired the same ammo. The US had lots of 90mm ammo still in storage for the M47 tank. And a lot of the other vehicles just needed to install a 50 and they were fully operational.

As for operating a tank with the radio antenna sticking out of the hatch - that can be done if it has to be done. Frankly by 2001 the last thing the US Army would be turning down getting an operational tank for would be a radio that doesnt work - a jury rig is a hell of a lot better than no tank.

And if they are using CEV's as tanks - I think they would take an old M60A1 over that

[Enfield]

I find the Littlefield idea interesting story wise, and I'll see how I use it.

As far as the 40th ID: I think that it makes more sense for the brigade that is available to be the main body aound which reservists are trained, equipped and deployed. My understanding is that reservists in Calilfornia and Oregon would be available, and so while the normal processes might face a lot of challenges, I think it is reasonable that a division can b formed around reserve units.

The division has considerable support in the form of logistics, tansport, signals and engineers to make this possible.

Because of this I'm going to cut down somewhat on armoured vehicles to reflect losses of fuel and parts, and halve the number of APCs, mortar carriers, etc. I think for artillery and aviation I will simply restict their use, and have their use controlled at high levels of command.

[mpipes]

AP rounds still do. It is a shell, round with case..

Form 1 with a $200 attached, then wait for Federal approval from the ATF. Sale and transfer can still be blocked by the State.

Has to be stored secure in a shelter that is fire proof.

Production that is thousands of dollars in fees to get the explosive licenses and manufacturing licenses for a hobby.

ARE YOU COMPLETELY NUTS!!!!!

Do you honestly think ATF is going to be in business as of 12/1/1997 ATF is going to be embedded in fallout scattered all over the Atlantic and Europe.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

ARE YOU COMPLETELY NUTS!!!!!

Do you honestly think ATF is going to be in business as of 12/1/1997 ATF is going to be embedded in fallout scattered all over the Atlantic and Europe.

I'm pretty certain that what he was referring to was the acquisition of these rounds before the T2k war when the US government was still in place and not during/after the war.