The 40th Infantry Division

[ArmySGT.]

What if someone PLANNED to use the collection against enemies
What if Littlefield, and some friends (Local Base commander, One or More high level state/federal politicians and several other friends) came to the realization that things could get bad, and that the collection would give the California State government a little bit of an edge during civil unrest. Heck, lets say some of these folks even thought that they could be "reinforcements" if the Soviets ever came through Washington state (not all powerful men are rational). So for a period of time before the TDM they pool their resources and influence to start making the collection ready for service. They start commissioning sympathetic machinists (or a "friend" with a machine shop orders their employees to) start making critical parts. State law enforcement looks the other way as munitions are located or created. Enthusiast and greybeards are recruited for crews and trainers. Until that day when the 40th ID reforms and this adhoc "wannabe" unit shows up for duty.
It almost sounds like the plot to a sitcom, but people take initiative all the time on endeavors. Think of Zouve units in the ACW, or the Lincoln Brigade. It's no more unrealistic in this fantasyverse than an entire infantry Brigade formed around Anti-Aircraft Vehicles. Maybe part of cannon could be this quixotic adventure.

Two men can keep a secret if one of them is dead.

You're talking in the hundreds of persons and the subversion of may State and Federal Laws that go with long prison terms for offenders.

Problem of all..........This is California.

Only half jokingly called, the Peoples Republic of California any longer.

Even making ammunition has problems....... The gun sights are calibrated to specific and standard shells with known properties. If you tried to make an APFSDS round for say a 37mm gun on an M5, if the modern propellant didn't wreck the breach, then the sights wouldn't work with the higher velocity ammunition.

Would the 1940s, 50s, and 60s equipment have a use somewhere Yes. Not as a front line unit fighting trained soldiers and professionals like the Mexican Armed Forces though.

Protecting the State Treasury convoy as it moves the gold to Idaho or the Governors mansion from angry residents. Not against trained soldiers supported by a combined arms force with its own armor and artillery.

[Olefin]

ArmySgt - I highly doubt anyone really cares much about state and federal laws after the TDM at all - no one is paying taxes, no one is paying attention to gun laws anymore - thats why LA is completely lawless by 2001 (getting massively nuked and no more water and electricity probably has something to do with that)

and I highly doubt that the Marines and Army made sure that every shell and weapon was accounted for as they were getting overrun by the Mexican invasion

FYI - you can make shells if you have the specs and the drawings - per the canon there are local machine shops making mortar rounds and such already by 2001 - and I have a feeling most of what they are making would be good old fashioned HE and solid shot

if he has the ability to make parts from the drawings and plans that he has I have a feeling he can make shells as well - given that his resources and skilled machinists that he had are a lot better than your average local machine shop

Oh and dont make me laugh that hard with this line - "Would the 1940s, 50s, and 60s equipment have a use somewhere Yes. Not as a front line unit fighting trained soldiers and professionals like the Mexican Armed Forces though."

The Mexican Army of the V1 and V2.2 timeline is a combination of both a volunteer and conscript army.

Their officers were good but their NCO's werent - at least not in the mid-90's - that changed after the Chiapas revolt. Their Marines and Paras were every bit as professional as our guys are. However their army at the time of the invasion in the main was not trained or equipped for any type of land war. They were mostly trained to deal with disasters and service and security work inside Mexico.

Thus their army was definitely not trained for the invasion and combat against the US Army or trained to take on insurgents that were decently armed in any way. And their equipment was not up to the standard it is today - they only succeeded because even though their armor was crap and they didnt have a lot of it they at least had some - and we didnt. Thats why the advance into CA basically came to an end when they hit the guys from the 40th around Bakersfield as they finally got into that area from Oregon.

What they had was mostly 50's to 60's vintage and designs with a small amount of more modern French equipment - heck they were still using Stuart tanks and WWII half tracks in their army and Toyota trucks as troop carriers.

Meaning that the Littlefield tanks would have been either even or a match for most of what they had.

[Raellus]

The M728 CEV
is used in the assault AS A TANK. These are used to breach obstacles like berms or with mine plow to get units through a defensive mine belt. All the while under enemy fire. The armor isn't enough by 2018 and that is why (even with ERA) this is replaced by the Grizzly.

While the 165mm demo gun isn't meant for other tanks that is what the supporting arms like artillery is for. NOTHING operates alone (except in RPGs).

It really depends on how you define a tank. By WWII definitions, you're describing an assault gun. AFAIK, during the Cold War both NATO and the Soviet Union defined tanks as tracked AFVs with high-caliber main guns and rotating turrets, used primarily as an offensive weapon and/or against other tanks. By that definition, is the M728 a tank It meets most of the criteria, but I doubt that an M728 would be used offensively against enemy armor, except in extremis.

[Raellus]

Would the 1940s, 50s, and 60s equipment have a use somewhere Yes. Not as a front line unit fighting trained soldiers and professionals like the Mexican Armed Forces though.

Protecting the State Treasury convoy as it moves the gold to Idaho or the Governors mansion from angry residents. Not against trained soldiers supported by a combined arms force with its own armor and artillery.

For whatever it's worth, I agree with you on these points. I don't know for sure, but I think the pro-Littlefield folks are proposing that his collection could be useful against Mexican follow-on troops, after the upper-echelon, mechanized spearheads have been substantially weakened, towards the end of their long drive into NorCal, not during the initial breakthrough battles. That, to me, seems entirely feasible/reasonable.

[Olefin]

For whatever it's worth, I agree with you on these points. I don't know for sure, but I think the pro-Littlefield folks are proposing that his collection could be useful against Mexican follow-on troops, after the upper-echelon, mechanized spearheads have been substantially weakened, towards the end of their long drive into NorCal, not during the initial breakthrough battles. That, to me, seems entirely feasible/reasonable.

100% correct Raellus - I am not saying that it would be used in 1998 to stop the invasion - for one back then the 40th would have been at full strength and they would have been like who cares about some old tanks we have plenty - which is definitely not the case by April 2001

this is what you use in 2001 with no other armor available to try to push the now weakened Mexican forces, whose logistics are completely shot and whose armor, whatever is left, is worn out and low on ammo - and long after just about every anti-tank weapon they have is gone - thats when Littlefield's Collection suddenly becomes a game changer - not during the actual invasion itself in 1998

and let me add that what I mean by this statement - "What they had was mostly 50's to 60's vintage and designs with a small amount of more modern French equipment - heck they were still using Stuart tanks and WWII half tracks in their army and Toyota trucks as troop carriers. Meaning that the Littlefield tanks would have been either even or a match for most of what they had." is what they had left after the invasion got stopped in their tracks and both sides were exhausted - not to try to use it to take on full power fresh invasion forces

[Olefin]

It really depends on how you define a tank. By WWII definitions, you're describing an assault gun. AFAIK, during the Cold War both NATO and the Soviet Union defined tanks as tracked AFVs with high-caliber main guns and rotating turrets, used primarily as an offensive weapon and/or against other tanks. By that definition, is the M728 a tank It meets most of the criteria, but I doubt that an M728 would be used offensively against enemy armor, except in extremis.

and the canon itself even remarks that its gotten so bad that they are using the M728 as a combat tank - and I quote from page 45 of the US Army Vehicle Guide - " This particular vehicle (an M728 that is with the 40th in the spring of 2000 in CA), however, has been pressed into service as a surrogate tank. (By 2000 virtually anything with armor and a gun was being used by armored units in the United States as a tank)"

Thus they arent using it as an engineering vehicle - they are using it to fight other tanks. As such I would much rather have a real tank that was really designed to fight other tanks with a real gun that fires real AP shells instead of having to use a vehicle with a demo gun as a tank.

[mpipes]

GOOD LORD.

If you are looking to canon, "Howling Wilderness" makes the US look just a step away from Mad Max. Littleton's collection intact in that environment makes for a major chunk of military power within the vicinity. The light Mexican armor is vulnerable to everything he has, and he WILL have the ammo for the guns, even if he has to bribe military sources to get them. The necessary machine shops and other resources are available to get a local production line up and running, and you cannot tell me that the man who pretty much singlehandedly assembled a collection of over 200 military armor vehicles can't figure out how to make ammo. Its like trying to tell Colt or Ruger he has guns but no ammo...big deal....he'll make the damn ammo if for no other reason than the simple fact he knows the people that can.

And the radio doesn't work. WHO THE HELL CARES!!! ITS A BLIPPING TANK!! Find a working CB and figure it out if you have too. Its a tank with a working main gun!!! And probably a machinegun as well. Are you really going to whine "the radio doesn't work"

Also, most museums from what I understand have fully functional military equipment. They can register the weapons on a Form 10. Not sure Littleton had that, but everything in the D-Day museum in New Orleans works. I helped them get a few full autos, and ALL the machineguns are live. Even unregistered machineguns can be registered by a museum. One of the MP-44s (or MG.42--forgotten which) on display was captured by a GI and never registered in the amnesty, but the museum did register it when donated. Totally legal. I think the F-4J at one of the Dallas museums is fully operational; right down to the radar and fire control systems. The only thing I understand that was removed was the ECM gear. The MiG-17's guns at the same place are intact as well as the fire controls and radar gunsight.

And AP rounds, last I checked, DO NOT come under ATF's definition of an explosive requiring registration. Propulsive gunpowder was expressly excluded by Congress. Now if you make a bomb with gunpowder, then you are in violation. But if you load ammo, even main-gun tank ammo, the propulsive charge in the case does not qualify as an explosive bomb under the law. So you can have AP rounds without a tax. As a good example, 37mm smoke grenades ARE NOT registered with ATF. 40mm HE on the other hand must be registered - even police agency issue. Tear gas rounds; not registered either. The key distinction; HE shells containing explosives are legally bombs. AP rounds do not contain explosives and do not qualify as bombs. But regardless, after TDM, ATF ain't going to care. The Federals are going to be concerned about trying to keep some degree of order, and rich folks making tank rounds or Jim Bob converting ARs to full auto for the local militia just are not going to be a concern. The people rioting two towns over because there is no food as well as trying to keep locales from hoarding all the food are going to be the main concerns.

[ArmySGT.]

ArmySgt - I highly doubt anyone really cares much about state and federal laws after the TDM at all - no one is paying taxes, no one is paying attention to gun laws anymore - thats why LA is completely lawless by 2001 (getting massively nuked and no more water and electricity probably has something to do with that)

Then you contradict yourself... Is San Francisco there or not When I state and demonstrate all of the Navy, Marine Corps, and Air Force bases surrounding there and should have been nuked into extinction; you tell me SF is there, that it canon.

One or the other. Either SF is a dead husk unable to support the people or it is all sunshine and rainbows.

Any reasonable person would state..... SF is dead for all intents and purposes. The Federal buildings like the Federal Reserve gold vault there warrant megaton range nukes. If nuked there is no emergeny services that would be able to do little more than medial without electricity to run the pumps for water to hydrants.

How is it then that the J. Littlefield and company have power, food, water, safety, and 100% of the staff with no asualties in 2000 When people are starving to death or dying from preventable diseases.
How

and I highly doubt that the Marines and Army made sure that every shell and weapon was accounted for as they were getting overrun by the Mexican invasion

The someone was demoted or shot for gross incompetent. SOP is to destroy supplies and munitions to prevent capture by enemy forces by any means.

FYI - you can make shells if you have the specs and the drawings - per the canon there are local machine shops making mortar rounds and such already by 2001 - and I have a feeling most of what they are making would be good old fashioned HE and solid shot

Mighty big IF. Those are proprietary information. Restricted by the DoD and State Department. I suppose WW1 fuzes are possible, I have a whole book of those in .pdf.

Modern radar VT takes transistors, though. Fuze Super quick, if you have the chemists to make the explosives for the fuse. The fuzes are the bottle neck in that operation. About 1000 variables to make that a go or a failure either way. What it is though is VERY manpower intensive and machine time intensive to make shells start to finish beginning with a foundry. So now they have a foundry, dozens of lathes with a head stock greater than 14 inches, and knee mill, horizontal mills, and broaching machines will space too hold stock greater than 12 inches........ OK. Now they need to find power, food, water, medicines, for a few hundred specialized trades and support like cooks.

See how far you have to streth things to get one obsolete tank into battle Why it is wasteful of resources

if he has the ability to make parts from the drawings and plans that he has I have a feeling he can make shells as well - given that his resources and skilled machinists that he had are a lot better than your average local machine shop

Not enough by far to divert them to other things, see above.

Oh and dont make me laugh that hard with this line "Would the 1940s, 50s, and 60s equipment have a use somewhere Yes. Not as a front line unit fighting trained soldiers and professionals like the Mexican Armed Forces though."

Be polite. Going down this road undercuts any legitimate argument you might have.

I get it though. How dare those little brown peasants stand up to Americans. Don't they know their place This is how you sound, right now.

The Mexican Army of the V1 and V2.2 timeline is a combination of both a volunteer and conscript army.

So is the U.S.; what is your point

Their officers were good but their NCO's werent - at least not in the mid-90's - that changed after the Chiapas revolt. Their Marines and Paras were every bit as professional as our guys are. However their army at the time of the invasion in the main was not trained or equipped for any type of land war. They were mostly trained to deal with disasters and service and security work inside Mexico.

Your confusing the paramilitary police forces with the regular army. There is a distinction. Mexico doesn't have anything like Posse Commitatus, and that blurs things from a U.S. Point of view.

Thus their army was definitely not trained for the invasion and combat against the US Army or trained to take on insurgents that were decently armed in any way. And their equipment was not up to the standard it is today - they only succeeded because even though their armor was crap and they didnt have a lot of it they at least had some - and we didnt. Thats why the advance into CA basically came to an end when they hit the guys from the 40th around Bakersfield as they finally got into that area from Oregon.

Let's see. Regular Mexican forces with an intact supply chain, excellent human intelligence, and their organic equipment on which they have trained crews, mechanic, and ordnance men are thwarted by an under strength U.S. Division without supply, adequate training, and unfamiliar equipment. The mental gymnastics alone are exhausting for this kind of forced narrative. The Mexicans intact supply lines are that of the 40ths to just begin.

What they had was mostly 50's to 60's vintage and designs with a small amount of more modern French equipment - heck they were still using Stuart tanks and WWII half tracks in their army and Toyota trucks as troop carriers.

You did note that the Mexican Army is atually training on those.. They have trained crews, mechanic, and new ordnance. The M5 and M6 guns were replaced with 20x139mm RH202 auto cannons. They have spare parts in abundance. Even the M3s have a 20mm on top. The DNX fighting vehicles are in service too as are the MEX-1s. There using light armored troop carriers to move troops..... All supported in Combined Arms by AT teams with the VBLs (Milan) and infantry with RPG-7s, M40a1s, and Carl Gustafs. Immediate support from the 75mm M8s and 105mm towed on call.

You don't need tanks to kill tanks. There is a hundred other ways starting with an artillery barrage for one.

Toe to Toe with a U.S. Division fully equipped and trained; I wouldn't give them a chance in hell. By this time in the Canon time lines the U.S. Divisions were sent overseas to Europe, the Middle East, Africa, and Korea. The Mexican trained and equipped force is up against green, partially trained conscripts, with little new or obsolete equipment.

Meaning that the Littlefield tanks would have been either even or a match for most of what they had.

When the other guys have the training, experience, and logistics it isn't and even fight at all. The Mexicans are fighting in one front with no one behind them, with outside support from Cuba, then a good deal of their factories and farms are intact. The Mexicans seem to be holding the water from the Colorado river too.

[ArmySGT.]

It really depends on how you define a tank. By WWII definitions, you're describing an assault gun. AFAIK, during the Cold War both NATO and the Soviet Union defined tanks as tracked AFVs with high-caliber main guns and rotating turrets, used primarily as an offensive weapon and/or against other tanks. By that definition, is the M728 a tank It meets most of the criteria, but I doubt that an M728 would be used offensively against enemy armor, except in extremis.

Granted.

Only a fool would send in that M728 alone as a tank anyway. Without infantry and artillery it would be dead fast. The 165mm gun might do enough blast damage to light armor to make a kill with a hit. I don't think the optics or the sights are up to the challenge though.

I wouldn't be using it as a tank. I would be using it for the intended purpose of a breacher to support leg infantry with all the protection I might possibly pile on. It is a specialist vehicle with a specialist task, trying to use it as an MBT is foolish and wasteful with the probable outcome being a dead M728 and four dead men.

[ArmySGT.]

For whatever it's worth, I agree with you on these points. I don't know for sure, but I think the pro-Littlefield folks are proposing that his collection could be useful against Mexican follow-on troops, after the upper-echelon, mechanized spearheads have been substantially weakened, towards the end of their long drive into NorCal, not during the initial breakthrough battles. That, to me, seems entirely feasible/reasonable.

The situation in 2001 favors the Mexican Government and Armed Forces.

Their fighting on one broad front with no one, but allies, behind them. They should still be able to land raids with their Marines up and down the U.S. west coast further tying up U.S. forces and preventing those from grouping in real strength.

The Mexican people are a part of the U.S. population. Those people live and work at all levels of society, not just as peons for whites the like cheap illegal labor. That is a huge human intelligence gathering network all reporting on U.S. Forces movement, strength, and supply. What would the Maquis be in spanish

The Mexicans have obsolete equipment, yes. The huge difference is that they train on this gear and have a supply chain for it. A badly damaged M3A1 can be trucked back to Mexico on a lowboy and repaired. By this time the M8 Greyhounds have 20MMs, and everything has diesel engines and modern radios.

The Mexican shouldn't even be starving. They have the water from controlling the Colorado and American rivers. Though they do need to do something about no imports of wheat or corn from the U.S. There is more money in growing food than drugs so that is a problem that takes care of itself.

Mexians have fuel from their own fields and supply from friends like Guatemala and Venezuela.

The U.S. Monroe doctrine has rightfully made for anger and mistrust from the Latin American countries. Would they reinforce Mexico with the M3s, M4s, and M8s given to them I don't know.

[Raellus]

I feel that there is middle ground here, but that some people just aren't interested in finding it together.

I think that it would be helpful to define our parameters here. May I assume that we are all discussing Twilight 2000 If so, then it would probably help to have a common point of reference. I propose that we use canon.

According to canon, is San Francisco nuked Are there any canonical targets close enough to the Littlefield Collection to put it in jeopardy

IIRC, canon is also clear on how far the Mexican Army was able to advance, and what U.S. territory it occupied up to c.2001.

IMO, the constructive approach would be to figure out ways, collaboratively, to reconcile canon with real world exigencies. In other words, how can we tweak things, as little as possible, so that the canon rings true Or, we can just argue back and forth, mostly just repeating ourselves, and end up getting frustrated and chippy with one another. I propose we pursue the former course.

[Raellus]

The situation in 2001 favors the Mexican Government and Armed Forces.

Their fighting on one broad front with no one, but allies, behind them. They should still be able to land raids with their Marines up and down the U.S. west coast further tying up U.S. forces and preventing those from grouping in real strength.

The Mexican people are a part of the U.S. population. Those people live and work at all levels of society, not just as peons for whites the like cheap illegal labor. That is a huge human intelligence gathering network all reporting on U.S. Forces movement, strength, and supply. What would the Maquis be in spanish

The Mexicans have obsolete equipment, yes. The huge difference is that they train on this gear and have a supply chain for it. A badly damaged M3A1 can be trucked back to Mexico on a lowboy and repaired. By this time the M8 Greyhounds have 20MMs, and everything has diesel engines and modern radios.

The Mexican shouldn't even be starving. They have the water from controlling the Colorado and American rivers. Though they do need to do something about no imports of wheat or corn from the U.S. There is more money in growing food than drugs so that is a problem that takes care of itself.

Mexians have fuel from their own fields and supply from friends like Guatemala and Venezuela.

The U.S. Monroe doctrine has rightfully made for anger and mistrust from the Latin American countries. Would they reinforce Mexico with the M3s, M4s, and M8s given to them I don't know.

I agree with you on nearly all points. However, I think you should consider the impact of U.S. partisans operating behind Mexican lines. Americans have lots of guns. They know the land. Also, loyal Mexican-Americans can gather intel for said partisan forces.

Also, long supply lines are vulnerable. The U.S. forces would have interior lines (i.e. much shorter/local supply) whereas the Mexican supply lines would often stretch for hundreds of miles through hostile (see point 1) territory.

Lastly, after a year of heavy combat, Mexican AFV stocks would be considerably depleted and, in the v1.0 timeline at least, Mexico didn't have the capacity to produce large numbers of their own.

To sum up, yes, in a T2K scenario, the Mexican army would have a number of advantages over the U.S. forces, but they'd also have to contend with some significant disadvantages (long supply lines and partisan activity), in addition to normal combat attrition (which both sides would be dealing with).

[ArmySGT.]

GOOD LORD.

Be polite. I am. Though I willingly admit to a level in bluntness in my replies. I am neither patient or willing to spend unnecessary time on padding things for adults. In real life or online. Still, be polite and argue your case, as I have done.

If you are looking to canon, "Howling Wilderness" makes the US look just a step away from Mad Max. Littleton's collection intact in that environment makes for a major chunk of military power within the vicinity. The light Mexican armor is vulnerable to everything he has, and he WILL have the ammo for the guns, even if he has to bribe military sources to get them. The necessary machine shops and other resources are available to get a local production line up and running, and you cannot tell me that the man who pretty much singlehandedly assembled a collection of over 200 military armor vehicles can't figure out how to make ammo. Its like trying to tell Colt or Ruger he has guns but no ammo...big deal....he'll make the damn ammo if for no other reason than the simple fact he knows the people that can.

That is a lot of oeIfs, Maybes, Shoulds, and Coulds.

That would have to be built before the war, employ several hundred people to be efficient, and costs thousands in fees for licenses. I suppose that a very low rate of hand made artisanal mortar and artillery shells would be turned out by a garage shot at a rate of ten or so a week.

Tank ammunition is orders of magnitude more difficult. It has to be precisely aimed, fly true, and penetrate. That means things like the powder charge in the casing has to be to a standard or the tanks gun sights are near useless.

And the radio doesn't work. WHO THE HELL CARES!!! ITS A BLIPPING TANK!! Find a working CB and figure it out if you have too. Its a tank with a working main gun!!! And probably a machinegun as well. Are you really going to whine "the radio doesn't work"

Hmmm, . Yes, the radios have to work for the tank to be effective. The tank has to work with Infantry in xlose support or it will be over run and killed. The Company and Battalion commanders have to be able to talk to the xrew to send them orders. The crew needs to be able to call for fuel or other supplies.

A tank doesn't just drive forward killing everything in front of it. A tank is part of a team, called combined arms. Hans Guderian is the progenitor of that concept and it is U.S. Army doctrine.

A tank without a radio is a pillbox more or less. Read some Combined Arms doctrine for a better explanation of what I just said.

Also, most museums from what I understand have fully functional military equipment. They can register the weapons on a Form 10. Not sure Littleton had that, but everything in the D-Day museum in New Orleans works. I helped them get a few full autos, and ALL the machineguns are live. Even unregistered machineguns can be registered by a museum. One of the MP-44s (or MG.42--forgotten which) on display was captured by a GI and never registered in the amnesty, but the museum did register it when donated. Totally legal. I think the F-4J at one of the Dallas museums is fully operational; right down to the radar and fire control systems. The only thing I understand that was removed was the ECM gear. The MiG-17's guns at the same place are intact as well as the fire controls and radar gunsight.

I don't know what you meant here. That museums have functional weapons Yes, given. What else did you mean

And AP rounds, last I checked, DO NOT come under ATF's definition of an explosive requiring registration. Propulsive gunpowder was expressly excluded by Congress. Now if you make a bomb with gunpowder, then you are in violation. But if you load ammo, even main-gun tank ammo, the propulsive charge in the case does not qualify as an explosive bomb under the law. So you can have AP rounds without a tax. As a good example, 37mm smoke grenades ARE NOT registered with ATF. 40mm HE on the other hand must be registered - even police agency issue. Tear gas rounds; not registered either. The key distinction; HE shells containing explosives are legally bombs. AP rounds do not contain explosives and do not qualify as bombs.

But regardless, after TDM, ATF ain't going to care. The Federals are going to be concerned about trying to keep some degree of order, and rich folks making tank rounds or Jim Bob converting ARs to full auto for the local militia just are not going to be a concern. The people rioting two towns over because there is no food as well as trying to keep locales from hoarding all the food are going to be the main concerns.

The food riots, power, and riminal militias would be a problem on the American side.

Still in bombed, nuked, diseased, starving, San Fransisco in 2000 where did all these tradesmen xome from and what should they be doing that would right the country versus making marginally effective ammunition for obsolete and likely to be destroyed equipment

What a waste! If that xan be done then it is better to get the infrastructure rebuilt than make 75mm or 37mm AP solid shot.

Alright. I was probably wrong about AP in a fixed case. To produce that though would have to all be setup before the war. Not that any one uses AP solid shot (bore size) except in auto cannons anymore.

[ArmySGT.]

I feel that there is middle ground here, but that some people just aren't interested in finding it together.

I think that it would be helpful to define our parameters here. May I assume that we are all discussing Twilight 2000 If so, then it would probably help to have a common point of reference. I propose that we use canon.

According to canon, is San Francisco nuked Are there any canonical targets close enough to the Littlefield Collection to put it in jeopardy

IIRC, canon is also clear on how far the Mexican Army was able to advance, and what U.S. territory it occupied up to c.2001.

IMO, the constructive approach would be to figure out ways, collaboratively, to reconcile canon with real world exigencies. In other words, how can we tweak things, as little as possible, so that the canon rings true Or, we can just argue back and forth, mostly just repeating ourselves, and end up getting frustrated and chippy with one another. I propose we pursue the former course.

Anyone with all of that. Anyone have on hand, ready to make, one large, and published by GDW only,set of reference material that is specific to U.S. versus Mexico

I agree. I do. I haven't argued for Canon. I have worked to point out where canon is not plausible or makes any sense given the capabilities and training of the forces (fictionally) in play here.

This Canon vs Non Canon argument seems to always crop up when someone needs it and ignored when they don't agree. That's why I don't say "Yes, but in Xanon". I don't see anyway to resolve that, as people are people.

I will give the original authors all due credit, as it is deserved. They did not have anywhere near the amount of information we take as granted today. Much being classified in someway.

[Raellus]

I'm not trying to be the canon police. I just thought a common frame of reference might be helpful. If y'all want to just keep arguing back and forth, ad nauseam, go for it. As long as y'all keep it civil, we're good.