The 40th Infantry Division

[Enfield]

The main thing I have as a concern about WWII-early Cold War vehicles is this: maintenance. Is it worth the trouble What would be more readily available replacement parts for existing vehicles for the division or this stuff

For example, I love the M20 Greyhound as a vehicle, I even had a model of one as a kid that I put together with loving care--but why get one if Humvees are available Other than rule of cool

On the other hand, if there are severe interruptions of supply and parts and replacements, then I could totally see it. I know at least one of my players would be down for it as he is a serious afficionado about that era.

[Olefin]

Having Littlefield there would mean those vehicles have spare parts and are in good condition. He would be the difference between vehicles from there and ones that get pulled out of a museum or found in some collector's garage

FYI there is definitely a canon reference to players finding an armored vehicle in a collectors garage - see the Gateway to the Spanish Main module - a fully functional M113 APC that only needs a battery and fuel (or conversion to alcohol from gas) and a machine gun to put on the pintle

[mpipes]

I have a hidden away WWII underground abandoned depot with several tanks and APCs as well as trucks loaded with loot.

[WallShadow]

I have a hidden away WWII underground abandoned depot with several tanks and APCs as well as trucks loaded with loot.

And on a parallel note, how about a pre-WW2 Nazi-sympathizer compound located near Santa Monica, and perhaps now in the employ of our good buddies New America

https://californiathroughmylens.com/murphys-ranch-abandoned-nazi-camp-in-santa-monica/

[Enfield]

And on a parallel note, how about a pre-WW2 Nazi-sympathizer compound located near Santa Monica, and perhaps now in the employ of our good buddies New America

https://californiathroughmylens.com/...-santa-monica/

That's kinda hilarious. I'm actually interested in exploring the activities of New America in California. Does anyone know canon or have ideas about that

[unkated]

Paul - can the ammo for the LAV-75 be used for that gun The 40th had LAV-75's issued to it

....

The M50 as the upgraded tank was called consisted of the 75-mm CN75-50 gun mounted in the modified turret.

In a short word, no. Very different weapon systems; different breeches.

The Sherman's 75mm ammo would not fit in the breech, much less the loader in the LAV-75. The LAV-75's gun has more power - meaning the shells are longer and wider (and won't fit in the Sherman's breech); if forced in, there is a decent chance the breech would blow inside the tank.

The CN75-50 gun in the Israeli M-50 is a French postwar design - different from the US WW2 period weapon and the LAV-75s weapon.

Among the larger problems with using this antique weaponry is limited ammo. You can swap out the .30 cal MGs for M60s easily enough, but in 1999, it will be difficult to find a factory to restart making old 75mm shells.

It's not technically difficult, but difficult to recreate and coordinate the retooling and supply chain needed to do so. Though there is probably some left in an army depot somewhere.... (sounds like an scenario or two).

Uncle Ted

[Olefin]

Oh I bet there is all kinds of stuff still in army depots - and considering Littlefield's resources (and that fact that the tanks had live barrels) I can bet that he had at least some live shells to go with them - and by 2001 even a couple of dozen shells a piece isnt bad considering that outside of vehicles issued to parties for starting campaigns you dont see many out there with full ammo loads (unless they are only armed with machine guns or very common rounds like for the M1 that they made untold numbers of shells for)

and yes having an adventure to find ammo stored away in an old depot sounds like a very good idea indeed

and there is even a great place to do so in CA - i.e. the Sierra Army Depot in Herlong, CA

[pmulcahy11b]

In a short word, no. Very different weapon systems; different breeches.

The Sherman's 75mm ammo would not fit in the breech, much less the loader in the LAV-75. The LAV-75's gun has more power - meaning the shells are longer and wider (and won't fit in the Sherman's breech); if forced in, there is a decent chance the breech would blow inside the tank.

The CN75-50 gun in the Israeli M-50 is a French postwar design - different from the US WW2 period weapon and the LAV-75s weapon.

Among the larger problems with using this antique weaponry is limited ammo. You can swap out the .30 cal MGs for M60s easily enough, but in 1999, it will be difficult to find a factory to restart making old 75mm shells.

It's not technically difficult, but difficult to recreate and coordinate the retooling and supply chain needed to do so. Though there is probably some left in an army depot somewhere.... (sounds like an scenario or two).

Uncle Ted

What he said.

[shrike6]

Thanks for the replies, those are helpful.

Yeah I am not sure what they would have in the motor pool or armory, so I guess I'm kinda guessing at that.

What is says in the US Army Vehicle Guide is that the 40th would have: (leaving out the tank battalions)
- 4 Mech Battalions (M113)
- 2 Mech Battalions (M2 Bradley)
- 1 Cavalry Battalion (M113)
- 1 AH-1 Battalion
- 1 Utility helicopter Battalion
- 3 Howitzer Battalions
- 1 MRLS Battalion
- 1 Roland Battalion

Skimmed through thread so maybe I missed it where this was pointed out but The 40th ID in California (ex 40th TD) is not the prewar CA NG 40th ID. I'm assuming thats the prewar order of battle for the 40th and that the 40th TD would be somewhat different given the situation in which it was formed.

[Enfield]

Skimmed through thread so maybe I missed it where this was pointed out but The 40th ID in California (ex 40th TD) is not the prewar CA NG 40th ID. I'm assuming thats the prewar order of battle for the 40th and that the 40th TD would be somewhat different given the situation in which it was formed.

This is true according to canon. Apparently one brigade is left in Austria in '98 and the others form the nucleus for a Reserves call up, so you're quite right, who knows what it might be made up of. I welcome speculation.

[Olefin]

This is true according to canon. Apparently one brigade is left in Austria in '98 and the others form the nucleus for a Reserves call up, so you're quite right, who knows what it might be made up of. I welcome speculation.

The 40th that is in CA right now is made up of excess personnel that was brought home from Europe (with the 1st brigade left in Europe) and then rebuilt with new personnel from the West Coast and equipped with whatever could be found which is why it had such a grab bag of equipment even when you look at the tanks it has - including using engineering vehicles as tanks

Which means it could literally be made up of anything - including vehicles from Littlefield's collection

[mpipes]

Just as a side note, I was doing Cowboy Action Shooting in the mid-90s and one of the guys brought in a mint condition 1884 Springfield Rifle. A buddy of his helping clean out a warehouse at the Red River Arsenal found a full crate of carefully packed rifles! The crate left in his pick up and the rifles were distributed to friends and relatives.

[Enfield]

The 40th that is in CA right now is made up of excess personnel that was brought home from Europe (with the 1st brigade left in Europe) and then rebuilt with new personnel from the West Coast and equipped with whatever could be found which is why it had such a grab bag of equipment even when you look at the tanks it has - including using engineering vehicles as tanks

Which means it could literally be made up of anything - including vehicles from Littlefield's collection

Very good point. I will bear this in mind. That means that Grehounds and Shermans could be possible! Or possibly my favourites, the Lee and the Grant!

[Enfield]

Just as a side note, I was doing Cowboy Action Shooting in the mid-90s and one of the guys brought in a mint condition 1884 Springfield Rifle. A buddy of his helping clean out a warehouse at the Red River Arsenal found a full crate of carefully packed rifles! The crate left in his pick up and the rifles were distributed to friends and relatives.

That is awesome. So a question: ammo A bit of research tells me that one would have to use cast bullets with blac powder. Is this true Would PCs if they found such a crate have to make their own rounds

[ArmySGT.]

Actually it isnt - considering the fact that the Mexican Army probably by 2001 has used almost every anti-tank weapon they had a WWII Sherman tank is probably very effective - especially against infantry armed with just rifles - they were very effective against German and Italian infantry that tried to fight them without anti-tank weapons so they will just as well in 2001

Irrelevant... ATGMs are not necessary to kill tanks. ATGMs are a defensive system, tanks are primarily killed by artillery with other tanks being number two. A tank spotted by an FO gets gifted contact fused HE really, really fast.

The WW2 comparison is a non starter too. Training even for Support troops includes how to kill tanks. The oetank terror of the past is just that, in the past. A WW2 Sherman doesn't have enough armor in the hull sides to resist a 40mm HEDP round and those are used by both sides. Any infantryman is taught to make improvised explosives and Sappers even better. Saddle bag charges, satchel charges, and platter charges will do it and anyone is able to make thermite with brillo pads and aluminum powder from a paint supplier. A WW2 Sherman is up against 1990s Infantrymen with night vision, squad radios, and precise on call artillery support. Any 40mm HEDP or rifle grenade is going to punch right through the side armor of either the hull or turret. Once that happens the penetrating jet will slice right into the exposed ammunition, fuel cells, and crew in this tank with no spall liners or compartmentalized ammunition. Ronson, is the nickname, I believe.

As for obsolete - tell that to the Israeli's - they used Shermans until the late 70's and they did very well with them

That had more to do with the Arabs very poor training, lack of coordination, little or no Command and Control locally, and lack of concentration of effort. On the Israeli side very superior training and outstanding air ground operation.

Very Well Source Tank Encyclopedia. M50 "But the main test in large scale came with the Six-Day War in 1967. Virtually all M-50 and M-51 were thrown in action in Golan Heights and the West Bank and the Sinai peninsula, confronted with soviet WW2 era T-34/85s (Battle of Abu-Ageila) and SU-100 tanks. However, in 1973, these tanks were again committed in large numbers, despite their obsolescence and due to the desperate nature of the struggle. Losses were heavier since their opponents were better armed. however, it was shown that the 105 mm armed M51s were able to score kills on the T-54/55 and T-62s using HEAT ammunition."

The analogy boils down to ... Good troops with poor equipment will defeat poor troops with good equipment, all other considerations being equal, in any engagement.

[/QUOTE]- and Littlefield had a lot more than just old Shermans - he had armor from the 1950's and 60's - including two fully operational M60 tanks with live barrels, a Conqueror with a live barrel as well that was fully operational, a M50 modernized Israeli Sherman, one M47 Patton, and a Centurion Mk13 - again all fully operational and all with live barrels - by my count that's at least six tanks that would still be effective on a modern battlefield - especially against a Mexican Army whose best armored vehicles were from that same era - they werent taking on T-80's at the Fulda Gap [/QUOTE] The only ones worth a damn in that paragraph are the two M60s and the M47. Ship the Centurion to Canada in trade for something else. There is no ammo in the supply chain or spare parts for them. Most importantly there is no one trained to operate them or repair them. No place to train on them or instructors with knowledge on them. Give the Sherman to the California Highway Patrol to guard the Governors mansion or the State Treasury.

A tank with no ammunition, no radios, no spare parts, no one to operate it, no one to repair it, and no training available to fix that is a drain on scarce resources.

as for its location - sorry but no nuclear blasts anywhere near it - you might want to look at the canon nuke locations - its in the mountains between Santa Cruz and San Jose - they would have had to hit San Francisco with a 25 megaton ground pounder to even possibly affect it - and they didnt - the city is still there - Littlefields depot is fine and dandy - and the perfect place to bring those Bradley's, M1A1 and M109's that need to be repaired

It is near enough the Hunter's Point Naval Shipyard and the Stanford/Palo Alto/ Menlo park areas to not have faired well at all. Indeed, the people that work or volunteer at the plae are probably dead from strikes on the Naval, Marine, and Air Force facilities all around the Bay.

As to Canon game material, you don't follow all of it, picking and choosing what you agree with and using that.

Also - he had a complete tank repair facility including the equipment and welders to do armor welding - which is a hell of a lot more than just a facility that can repair heavy earth moving equipment - I know I used to work at BAE and the kind of equipment he had was every bit as good as what we were using for repairing armored vehicles that came in with battle damage - or that we used to make brand new M88A2's for Iraq - he could and did take beat to hell tanks that looked like they were one step from the scrapyard and make them into fully restored and operational tanks - and your average heavy earth moving repair shop couldnt even begin to do that

Armor welding isn't magic. Thermite welding is used in Heavy Equipment too. There is nothing about the facility that isn't available 1000 times over spread out over the State wherever there is a Mine or earth moving contractor. The armor welding your alluding to special knowledge of, corresponds to welding composite armor, the layered steel, titanium, ceramic, depleted uranium, lead, and resins. Something that none of the tanks mentions has as part of its armor, hull, or chassis. Since all of these hull are Rolled Homogeneous Armor (RHA) the worst possible to be behind in modern times that doesn't matter.