Police Forces

[Legbreaker]

My first reserve unit had a policeman as a member. Even though it was peace time and he had a relatively easy "day" job (was able to pick his own hours, etc as he was assigned to a small one man post about 45 minutes out of town), he still had great difficulty balancing the two roles.
Didn't take long before he dropped the army entirely and focused solely on being a policeman.

As mentioned earlier (by several people) what happens in T2K depends heavily on local conditions. In some areas the perception may be that police are not needed (I'm thinking this is more likely in rural areas), while others, an increase in police numbers may be warranted (but perhaps not actually achieved due to manpower and skills shortages).

It's very difficult to state categorically that police would be stripped of manpower nationally, even on a state or regional level. Every town, county, municipality, shire, etc would need to be assessed on a case by case basis with not just the usual police duties and responsibilities assessed, but the risk of saboteurs and so forth also included.

[CDAT]

As mentioned earlier (by several people) what happens in T2K depends heavily on local conditions. In some areas the perception may be that police are not needed (I'm thinking this is more likely in rural areas), while others, an increase in police numbers may be warranted (but perhaps not actually achieved due to manpower and skills shortages).

It's very difficult to state categorically that police would be stripped of manpower nationally, even on a state or regional level. Every town, county, municipality, shire, etc would need to be assessed on a case by case basis with not just the usual police duties and responsibilities assessed, but the risk of saboteurs and so forth also included.

I kind of agree, I do not think that it would be done on purpose, but early stages when the called up units I do not think that they would make exceptions for police, as that would likely make major leadership holes in the military unit (not all but most I would think). After this I think most departments would be able to deal by mandatory overtime, longer shifts and the like. Then when they started recalling the IRR (US term, Individual Ready Reserve, people who have gotten out recently and are still within eight years of joining) I again do not see they exempting the police. Now having said this I think that this mostly applies to the US, and there is also a system for the Guard/Reserves that an employee can be designated by their employer as critical to the job, I do not know all the requirements for it (I do not know if private employers can do this or only government for example). During my time in the Guard and as a Officer I deployed two time and my department was not happy, however when told about the way that they could designate us as critical they were unwilling to do so, off the top of my head I do not know of any that have ever even tried to use it. I do know of some that if you join that agence you can not be a member of the Guard or Reserves, and if you are they will discharge you.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that for many police forces overseas they may be, at least partially, already militarized. The police force in Kenya has a militarized arm that in some way is better armed and trained than their military. Senegal's police are aligned closely to how France and Belgium had theirs - i.e. they basically are the equivalent of military police in many ways.

The US is a very different animal - i.e you may have reservists or ex-military police members in police departments but they are the exception and not even close to the rule

[CJHusVar]

Even if 30% of a department like NYPD were mobilized Guard/Reserve, that would still leave nearly 20,000 armed and organized personnel available. I would think that if there was a declaration of martial law, those departments would continue to exist and execute their normal duties, albeit under the direction of the senior military commander. I don't see them being rolled into an MP Brigade (although that HQ could provide command, control and coordination) or otherwise "drafted". The very organization itself would be too valuable to dispense with.

That also brings up the question of the other substantial Federal law enforcement agencies. What becomes of them I could see most going with the CIVGOV and, again, providing an armed and organized force for control of local areas and facilities.

[CJHusVar]

Keep in mind that for many police forces overseas they may be, at least partially, already militarized. The police force in Kenya has a militarized arm that in some way is better armed and trained than their military. Senegal's police are aligned closely to how France and Belgium had theirs - i.e. they basically are the equivalent of military police in many ways.

The US is a very different animal - i.e you may have reservists or ex-military police members in police departments but they are the exception and not even close to the rule

The French Gendarmerie Nationale comes to mind. They police rural areas and small towns, but have a wartime security mission under the Ministry of Defense. The Police Nationale have jurisdiction in larger towns and cities and fall under the Ministry of the Interior. I'm sure they have wartime contingency plans as well.

[Raellus]

I think it bears looking at what countries have historically done during total, modern wars. I don't know if police forces in the major democracies were reduced to provide military manpower during WW2, but I know that, late in the war, many German police forces were stripped bare to bolster Volksgrenadier and Volkssturm units. And Nazi Germany was a police state!

I'd like to hear from someone who has expertise on the subject of law enforcement in the Allied nations during WW2.

It's been pointed out, but bears repeated that some urban police forces would be all but destroyed by nuclear strikes, and this could have a knock-on effect on the police forces of affected suburbs and surrounding satellite towns.

[Olefin]

Look at the Los Angeles area - given the number of nuclear weapons used and their effects the LAPD must have taken catastrophic losses during the strikes and riots and disruptions afterward - I would have been surprised if ten to fifteen percent were still on their feet within a couple of days of the strikes. Same for the police in Washington DC and other areas hit heavily.

And with those departments gone the surrounding areas would have had major issues trying to keep any order at all

[Raellus]

A Related Question

What do you guys see happening to belligerents' prison populations

I think they would be culled for military manpower. People with minor or non-violent felonies would be released if they agreed to join the military. Only the really dangerous folks would remain behind bars. A reduction in the prison population would also mean that corrections officers (prison guards) would be available as well, either for the military, or to transition to police duty.

[copeab]

What do you guys see happening to belligerents' prison populations

Depending on their offenses, one of:

(1) drafted into the military

(2) sent to labor battalions

(3) executed

[Raellus]

Depending on their offenses, one of:

(1) drafted into the military

(2) sent to labor battalions

(3) executed

re #3, you really think so I can't tell if your response is dead serious or a bit tongue-in-cheek.

I suppose there could be some isolated incidents of rogue prison wardens "liquidating" inmates after the TDM breakdown of civilization, but, at least in the USA., don't you think citizen's concept of civil, constitutional rights, and due process (not to mention basic human rights) would be a major obstacle to any, systematic large-scale executions

[copeab]

re #3, you really think so I can't tell if your response is dead serious or a bit tongue-in-cheek.

Serious, although this will vary by nation and reason for incarceration. For example, I would not expect serial killers or pedophiles to be given a rifle or shovel. Mass murderers are iffy, depending on how likely they are deemed to turn on their (non-criminal) superiors.

The executions might be organized, by some guards on their way out, or by other prisoners.

[CDAT]

Even if 30% of a department like NYPD were mobilized Guard/Reserve, that would still leave nearly 20,000 armed and organized personnel available. I would think that if there was a declaration of martial law, those departments would continue to exist and execute their normal duties, albeit under the direction of the senior military commander. I don't see them being rolled into an MP Brigade (although that HQ could provide command, control and coordination) or otherwise "drafted". The very organization itself would be too valuable to dispense with.

That also brings up the question of the other substantial Federal law enforcement agencies. What becomes of them I could see most going with the CIVGOV and, again, providing an armed and organized force for control of local areas and facilities.

Just remember that under martial law, civil law is suspended, and only military law is active. So either they would be drafted into the military or they are no longer law enforcement. I would guess that they would be "drafted" as an entire unit as a "MP Brigade"

As for the other FLEO's I would guess that they are either going to be part of CivGov where they would still be FLEO's or if they go with MilGov then they would be incorporated (drafted/direct commissioned) in the MP's or CID.

[pmulcahy11b]

[QUOTE=Raellus;82751]What do you guys see happening to belligerents' prison populations

For maximum security-type nasty individuals, lock them in their cells, weld the bars shut, then walk away from the place. You get to avoid mass executions and they will cease to be a problem sooner or later except for the escape artists. Stations sharpshooter teams around the prison for a while and have then shoot anyone who makes it out.

For less "acute" criminals, these can be recruited into work gangs, or if they have usable skills and still remember enough of them, put their knowledge to work. Stoners and drunks will probably benefit from work gangs while they get clean; then you can find out if they also have any usable skills.

[Legbreaker]

For maximum security-type nasty individuals...

I was thinking along the same lines. May not be an organised "culling", but as more and more guards desert after the nukes and food supplies dry up, the prisoners are more and more likely to remain locked in their cells 24 hours a day.
In some cases a few of the more soft hearted guards may try to keep the inmates alive, but sooner or later they're going to be faced with a decision - them or us.

In some places prisoners may find themselves chained together and used as slave labour. This seems most likely in NA controlled areas.

[CDAT]

What do you guys see happening to belligerents' prison populations

I think they would be culled for military manpower. People with minor or non-violent felonies would be released if they agreed to join the military. Only the really dangerous folks would remain behind bars. A reduction in the prison population would also mean that corrections officers (prison guards) would be available as well, either for the military, or to transition to police duty.

Depending on their offenses, one of:

(1) drafted into the military

(2) sent to labor battalions

(3) executed

First I am assuming that by prison you are also including jails. Going on that assumption I do not think that Copeab is close depending on the time point. The later in the time line we are talking the more draconian it will be.

Overall I think most that are able in body and mind (this I think is the bigger issue those with serious metal illness) will be offered the choice of joining, but I do not see many (if any) being forced to join tell the draft is started, then they would be treated like draftees. For those who are unable/unwilling to joining the military I think most of them will be used for labor either as a labor battalion, or prison labor doing manual labor/menial tasks (making big rocks into little rocks, and the such). For the most most violent (and those who kill in prison) I could see them being executed, but more likely they would be killed in the act or when it gets bad enough that they decide to call it quits at the prison I would not be surprised to see those few still in prison to just be left locked in there cells.