Shotgun Questions

[swaghauler]

I don't have an issue with this because at close range, they're treated as a single round, while at medium range they're immediately reduced to 7 dice. If you really wanted to, you could treat 12 and 15 pellet loadings as 15-shot bursts (which would get reduced to 10 at medium range) and 18 pellet loadings as 20-shot bursts (reduced to 14 at medium range). All of that's using the Dice Lost Per Range Band Beyond Short on page 203 of v2.2.



Characters doing an ammo dump with a shotgun are going to hit a ton of penalties and not much else. If someone with STR 10 fires a Semiautomatic Shotgun all five times in a single fire action, they've got 5 points of recoil penalty. Each of their bursts is reduced from 10D20 to 7D20 by range, and to -3D20 by recoil penalty ("each shot is treated as a 10-round burst using the automatic fire rules, including the reduction of dice rolled for hits for recoil and range"). At best, they can fire three shots each at 7D20, since 4 shots would reduce each shot to 3d20. Someone with a more average STR 6 can fire two shots at 7D20 or three shots each at 1D20. You'd need someone with STR 12 (roll 12 on 2d6 and use two Secondary Skills on Weight Lifting) to be able to fire all five shots at 1d20 per shot. For all of these, the first shot might be Difficult (at skill level) if an Aim action was previously taken; all other shots will be Formidable (1/2 skill level).

All of the shotguns (other than the CAW) in Infantry Weapons are even worse, because they're Recoil 4 or 5 instead of the 3 of the Semiautomatic in the core rules. You might get off two shots in a fire action with those without eliminating all of the dice through range and recoil penalties.

All of which is still very complex for new players. I have a modified system for shotguns that I will have to post when I get time. I think at least some of the people on the forum will find it easier to use than the RAW system. I don't think the original DEVs understood how shot spread/patterning and pellet density affects the efficiency of shotguns. Their "spread model" (for stray rounds) is simply ridiculous too. At 100 meters a shot payload will only be about 3 meters across (some loads only 2 meters).

[Legbreaker]

Other errors include...

This is why I always refer to Paul's stats whenever possible rather than the books.

[Olefin]

This is why I always refer to Paul's stats whenever possible rather than the books.

Completely agree - thats why when I added animals to my updated East Africa sourcebook they came straight from material that Paul had published

[Milano]

I don't know if it's too cumbersome but I will tell yeall how I deal with it and you can use it as such. I believe a typical 12 ga shotgun, with a Modified Choke will have a 1 inch pattern for every yard of range, and all shotguns have a range of 10, unless they're sawed off dramatically or exceptionally long. Instead of treating a shotgun blast as full auto fire I went about it statistically, an excerpt..

"Statistically an average adult male has 1,529 square inches of surface area when facing a shooter. Given that at 80 meters, thus the 80 inch circle, is in actuality 5,026 square inches you can see that the number of potential hits are governed by luck, not skill."

I only worked out the statistics for 12, 15, and 18 pellets but.. At 80 yards the pattern is 5,026 square inches.

At 10 yards all 12 pellets hit.

At 20 yards the pattern is 314 square inches. 2d6-1 hits but they get a +1 to hit.

At 40 yards its a 1,256 sq in pattern and a +2 to hit. But only 2d4-1 pellets hit.

At 80 yards a 12 pellet pattern gets a +3 bonus to hit but the ref has to roll 2d4-4 to get the number of actual hits.
As such, at 80 yards, to get hit with 1 pellet has a 62% chance. 2 is 19%. 3 is 13% 4 is 6%.

I will attach my shotgun rules to flesh it out but that is the jist of it

[StainlessSteelCynic]

You know, in terms of gameplay, I think this is great.
It appears that it would really speed up proceedings and it has a sturdy framework so if you make a few adjustments for things such as different types of shot etc. etc. it seems that it won't mess things up. Plus it's pretty damned simple without being simplistic so even the least "gunhead" person should be able to work it out and it still gives some feel for the unique qualities of shot shells as ammunition.

I don't know if it's too cumbersome but I will tell yeall how I deal with it and you can use it as such. I believe a typical 12 ga shotgun, with a Modified Choke will have a 1 inch pattern for every yard of range, and all shotguns have a range of 10, unless they're sawed off dramatically or exceptionally long. Instead of treating a shotgun blast as full auto fire I went about it statistically, an excerpt..

"Statistically an average adult male has 1,529 square inches of surface area when facing a shooter. Given that at 80 meters, thus the 80 inch circle, is in actuality 5,026 square inches you can see that the number of potential hits are governed by luck, not skill."

I only worked out the statistics for 12, 15, and 18 pellets but.. At 80 yards the pattern is 5,026 square inches.

At 10 yards all 12 pellets hit.

At 20 yards the pattern is 314 square inches. 2d6-1 hits but they get a +1 to hit.

At 40 yards its a 1,256 sq in pattern and a +2 to hit. But only 2d4-1 pellets hit.

At 80 yards a 12 pellet pattern gets a +3 bonus to hit but the ref has to roll 2d4-4 to get the number of actual hits.
As such, at 80 yards, to get hit with 1 pellet has a 62% chance. 2 is 19%. 3 is 13% 4 is 6%.

I will attach my shotgun rules to flesh it out but that is the jist of it

[Legbreaker]

You know, in terms of gameplay, I think this is great.

Yeah, but inches in a game that uses metric

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Ultimately, those measurement units aren't as important as the percentile values derived from them. 80 yards is near enough to 80 metres etc. etc. for the purpose of gameplay that I'm not going to worry about it

[Legbreaker]

Yes, but IMPERIAL
Ewwwwwww!

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Yes, but IMPERIAL
Ewwwwwww!

I know right, it's like, so old school right Like, it's just like, so positively ancient!


There wasn't a smiley with a big enough grin so I'll just have to use that one again...

[swaghauler]

Yes, but IMPERIAL
Ewwwwwww!

Says the man from the country which STILL has the word "Royal" in all of its Armed Forces!

[swaghauler]

Ultimately, those measurement units aren't as important as the percentile values derived from them. 80 yards is near enough to 80 metres etc. etc. for the purpose of gameplay that I'm not going to worry about it

This is exactly it. All you really need to worry about is how WIDE the pattern is at a given range. Most common Buckshot is going to be expanding at a 1" spread per meter traveled. Tactical Buckshot is going to average about 0.75" per meter traveled and cheap Buckshot (like the clear Fiocchi 00 that doesn't even put a shot wad between the payload and the powder) will hit about 1.5" per meter traveled. The reason you read about the effective range of Buckshot being between 25 and 30 meters is this is the typical range where EVERY PELLET will still be on a human silhouette target. In Police/Defense circles, liability is a major risk and every pellet MUST be accounted for. In Military circles, however, the same liability concerns do not exist. Thus, the buckshot loading can be used at greater ranges as long as you are willing to accept the "collateral damage" and the significantly reduced performance of the load.

Like Milano, I too have the Short Range for 00 Buck in an 18" Cylinder Bore shotgun set at 10 meters for Buckshot (actually all shot) and 20 meters for Rifled Slugs. This range breaks down like this for me...

00 Buck (9 pellet Load):

-Short Range (10 meters): Roll 1D20 with an AVERAGE (Skill X 1) chance to hit and 9D6 Damage on that hit. The typical pattern will be a 6" to 10" circle meaning only one location should be hit under my house rules.

-Medium Range (11 to 20 meters): Roll 9D20's with an AVERAGE (Skill X 1) chance to hit and each hit doing 1D6 Damage. The Location roll is either upper torso (1D6) or lower torso (1D6+4) for all hits as the pattern is only a 20" circle which is as wide as a typical human and less than half as tall as a typical human.

-Long Range (21 to 40 meters): At this range, the pattern is getting wider than a human's width and pellet density is dropping fast. The shooter will lose some pellets from the pattern. The base chance to hit will be a DIFFICULT Test (Skill X 0.5) on a snap shot and an AVERAGE Test (Skill X 1) on an aimed shot. Tactical 00 Buck will have the shooter rolling 5D20 to hit while regular Buck will be rolling 4D20 to hit at this range. All rounds that hit will do 1D6 Damage and hits can occur anywhere on the body.

-Extreme Range (41 to 80 meters): At this range, the pattern will be wider than most humans are tall and shot density will be bottoming out. The chance to hit will be FORMIDABLE (Skill X 0.25) on a snap shot and DIFFICULT (Skill X 0.5) on an aimed shot. BOTH Tactical and regular buckshot will be rolling 2D20s to hit with. The Damage will still be 1D6 per hit.

-Maximum Range (81 to 160 meters): At this range, the pattern will be between 2 METERS and 4 METERS wide (actually 80" and 160"). Hitting anything will require an IMPOSSIBLE Test (Skill X 0.1) on a snap shot and a FORMIDABLE Test (Skill X 0.25) on an aimed shot. The shooter will be rolling 1D20 to hit for 1D6 in Damage on a hit.

I have both chokes and barrel length simply add to the Base Range above as they both contribute to keeping the pattern tight for a longer distance from the bore.

Cylinder Bore: This is the default bore with no constriction and a 30% pellet density at 40 yards.

Improved Cylinder: This choke setting has 0.0010" of constriction and a pellet density of 40% at 40 yards. I add +1 meters to Range for Buckshot and +2 meters for Rifled Slugs (but not Sabots).

Modified Cylinder: This choke has 0.20" of bore constriction and a pellet density of 50% at 40 yards. I add +3 meters to Range for Buckshot but nothing for Slugs at the constriction is beginning to affect their safe firing.

Full Choke: This choke is as tight as you get in CONVENTIONAL MANUFACTURER'S choke tube systems. You will have to buy custom for a deeper choke (the are Extra-Full and Extra-Extra-Full Turkey chokes out there). It has a bore constriction of 0.35" and provides a pellet density of 70% at 40 yards. Full choke bores can be dangerous to shoot Slugs from. The constriction is so great that backpressure can build up behind the slug and rupture the barrel. I'd call for a roll ABOVE the weapon's Wear Value on 1D10 when shooting Slugs from a Full Choke. A 1D10 roll resulting in a number BELOW the Wear Value results in a barrel explosion. I give a bonus of +5 meters to Range for Buckshot and -2 meters for Slugs and Sabots.

Rifled Choke Tubes: These are primarily used to shoot SABOTS out of smoothbore shotguns. Any Shot (either Buck or Bird) fired from a rifled choke will be scattered by centrifugal force from the imparted spin. It has been proven in tests that shot density at 40 yards is 10% OR LESS. I give this choke a -5 meters for Buckshot and a +5 meters for Sabots. Rifled Slugs gain +2 meters to Range as well.

Damages Based on Shot Sizes:

I list the following Buckshot sizes by Damage AND the number of pellets needed to equal a 1D20 roll To Hit (and for Damage). Please note that I use all of the Polyhedral Dice in my house rules.

0000 Buck (.380 diameter): One To Hit die per pellet. Damage: 1D8
000 Buck (.36 diameter): One To Hit die per pellet. Damage: 1D6+1
00 Buck (.33 diameter): One To Hit die per pellet. Damage: 1D6
0 Buck (.32 diameter): One To Hit die per pellet. Damage: 1D5
#1 Buck (.30 diameter): One To Hit die per 2 pellets loaded. -1 meter to Base Range. Damage: 1D6 per Hit Die (per 2 pellets).
#2 Buck (.27 diameter): One To Hit die per 3 pellets loaded. -1 meter to Base Range. Damage: 1D6 per Hit Die (per 3 pellets)
#3 Buck (.25 diameter): One To Hit die per 4 pellets loaded. -2 meters to Base Range. Damage: 1D6 per Hit Die (per 4 pellets)
#4 Buck (.23 diameter): One To Hit die per 5 pellets loaded. -2 meters to Base Range. Damage: 1D6 per Hit Die (per 5 pellets)

Once you have determined the number of To Hit Dice you have in a given load; You now have that many DAMAGE DICE at Short Range (which is an AVERAGE Skill test) but roll only a single 1D20 To hit (as the Shot all hits one location). You Roll the To Hit Dice (with no dice losses) at Medium Range (which is an AVERAGE test as well). You then roll HALF of your To Hit Dice at Long Range (which is a DIFFICULT test) and ONE QUARTER your To Hit Dice at Extreme Range (which is a FORMIDABLE test). I round up or down based on the load (tactical or premium loads versus cheap Buckshot)
I round down on the initial To Hit Dice and round up for the number of dice remaining at each range band for the multiple pellet per To Hit loadings.

This is just a "screenshot" of my rules on shotguns.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Says the man from the country which STILL has the word "Royal" in all of its Armed Forces!

Yeah but but but, the US military uses metric too!
An' my dad's bigger 'an yours an' he'll beat you up!

[swaghauler]

Yeah but but but, the US military uses metric too!
An' my dad's bigger 'an yours an' he'll beat you up!

LOL! I think the Navy still uses yards and feet. The squids always were slow on the uptake.

[swaghauler]

Chris from Lucky Gunner ammo just uploaded a video on Buckshot that I think is relevant to the conversation.

https://youtu.be/3haq5BFh7qs

Swag

[WallShadow]

Swaghauler:
I noted that you included the spectrum of chokes, but charging out of obscurity (my copy of the reproduction of the 1940 Stoeger Arms Catalogue, aka "the Shooter's Bible") are two more muzzle treatments a Cutts Compensator (yes, for a shotgun!) and a shot spreader. The Cutts compensator was popular in the 30s and was original equipment on Thompson Submachine Guns. It acted like an attached Mag-na-port treatment to help keep the muzzle-rise from, well, rising. The shot spreader looks sort of like a funnel that's flattened on two sides which are positioned top and bottom. The shot apparently is allowed to spread laterally but not in the vertical plane.