4th ed T2K

[mpipes]

Rainbow Six....you might want to do something about your files link.

As to those that like Chinese porn or gambling (it seems to have both) or just a good chuckle; click away!!!

[Rainbow Six]

Bugger. Thanks for the heads up. My hosting company stopped offering hosting a while ago and I never got round to updating my sig. Have amended it.

[Silent Hunter UK]

Indeed!

To our UK members, does v4 make the UK a more interesting potential campaign setting than earlier versions do

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You got rid of the football hooligan gangs, so that's something.

[comped]

As much as it might sound ridiculous, and the past several months not withstanding, at least the UK pavilion at Epcot has British workers...

Somehow the few that are left are migrating between there and the Canadian pavilion, depending on what they feel like, at least according to the ones I talked to on Sunday. Some kind of strange Commonwealth exemption Disney gave them for manpower purposes, right now it's supposed to only be Americans staffing non-american pavilions if there aren't any people from the actual country.

I have no idea if the author of the particular section is British but he is getting torn apart to shreds on the official FL forums...

[Raellus]

Should They Stay or Should They Go

I think it's interesting/curious that in v4's The World At War some of the SSR's cleave off the Soviet Union and some don't. For example, the Baltic states do, but Ukraine does not. How about the Caucuses republics and all of the 'Stans

There's no explanation given, that I've found, so I suppose they're leaving it up to Ref interpretation.

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[comped]

Sorry to double post, but I just wanted to give an example of what is being said about the UK situation, by the official author of said section, on the official forums...

In Northern Ireland, I didnt bother calling the IRA the Provisionals because there was no need to confuse the various Irish Republican movements at that time (INLA, the Continuity IRA, Real IRA, Oglaigh nah Eireann, Clann na Gael etc) when most readers get what we mean by the IRA (and in fact PIRA had two ceasefires and the Good Friday Agreement in that time so arguably either CIRA or RIRA could have taken advantage and led the Irish Republican movement in that moment (accepting that the GFA probably didnt happen in this timeline, but PIRA was still on ceasefire). In a longer piece, with the space to expand, it would be potentially interesting to delve more deeply into this, but for this short piece there just wasnt the space.

The Good Friday agreement was not agreed to until 1998. As far as I have read, there is no mention of the Good Friday agreement in the timeline. That is a basic googleable fact. The timeline diverges in 1991, there is seven years difference between them. Also it is fairly important to mention, at least to someone who has a grasp of Northern Irish politics and history like myself, that there's a huge difference between the PIRA and many of the other groups he mentioned, and that kind of detail is absolutely necessary if you want to have a game with Northern Ireland even acting in the periphery, so a game set in Wales or Cornwall or Scotland, or even the republic. never mind that there's no reason why they would reasonably uphold a ceasefire in the middle of the Cold War going hot, with their best chance in years to do anything meaningful. If there wasn't the space to be specific enough, and in my opinion if you're going to write about something that needs specifics you should probably make sure there's specifics involved, then why print it at all

[Olefin]

Although I too have some issues with the new backstory, I don't think hyperbole and name-calling is helpful or even merited. This is an Alpha, and if enough folks offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism of certain problematic aspects of the project, they might get fixed.

IMHO, some folks are reading a bit much into the bit of the backstory regarding the failure of NATO's Operation Reset offensive (unless I'm missing a more detailed description of said op somewhere else in the Alpha). It seems to me that the authors were deliberately vague in order to leave room for Ref interpretation. One is free to interpret it as "NATO is effectively destroyed and running for the hills", OR one can interpret it more conservatively (closer to what happens to the Summer 2000 offensive described in v's 1 & 2).

Also, I think some people miss the entire point of the game- that player parties are supposed to be cut off and on their own. T2k is not a wargame. It's a military ROLE PLAYING GAME.

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What part of "all the divisions involved in Reset were overrun and their survivors running for the woods" was unclear That's eight Corps including the entire Polish Army overrun and the survivors running for their lives. I have read a lot of military history and that pretty much is a destroyed NATO and Soviets Uber Alles situation - that is not in any way close to V1 or V2.2 - we aren't just talking the 5th here - we are talking every division in the Secret handout.

And this is very late in the war - this isn't a situation like where units were overrun in Korea in V1 - this is the last gasp the last effort - ie there isn't anyone left to stop the Soviets

Sorry but that is utter BS - and one other big question - where are the hundreds of thousands of reinforcements that the US put together - are you telling me the Soviets killed them all or most of them in the big naval battle Because there isn't a lot of fighting between the supposed huge naval battle and Reset

[Raellus]

Already Answered, But Here It Is Again

What part of oeall the divisions involved in Reset were overrun and their survivors running for the woods was unclear Thats eight Corps including the entire Polish Army overrun and the survivors running for their lives.

Repost from #152:

"In the end, the NATO divisions of Operation Reset are overrun, survivors fleeing into the woods. The final order from HQ is short and to the point: oeGood luck. Youre on your own now."

p. 148 v4 Player's Manual (Alpha Version)

I still think this is vague enough to allow Ref's room for interpretation. It doesn't say "destroyed" or "annihilated" or "wiped out". "Overrun" doesn't necessarily mean any of these things. Several US divisions could be described as having been overrun during the Battle of the Bulge, but organized elements of said continued to fight on. German divisions on the eastern front during the later years of WWII were routinely overrun, but many broke out of Soviet pockets and fought their way back to German lines, sometimes over and over again.

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[Olefin]

Repost from #152:

"In the end, the NATO divisions of Operation Reset are overrun, survivors fleeing into the woods. The final order from HQ is short and to the point: oeGood luck. Youre on your own now."

p. 148 v4 Player's Manual (Alpha Version)

I still think this is vague enough to allow Ref's room for interpretation. It doesn't say "destroyed" or "annihilated" or "wiped out". "Overrun" doesn't necessarily mean any of these things. Several US divisions could be described as having been overrun during the Battle of the Bulge, but organized elements of said continued to fight on. German divisions on the eastern front during the later years of WWII were routinely overrun, but many broke out of Soviet pockets and fought their way back to German lines, sometimes over and over again.

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From the Secret Handout

5th Infantry Divisions avenue of advance from LESZNO to LODZ along
route RED is bounded on the right (south) flank by the III US Corps main elements, including 2nd Armored Division and 1st Cavalry Division (main body of III US Corps advance to LUBLIN) with 3rd ACR in reserve. 29th and 34thinfantry divisions are advancing further south on their right flank, along the Czech and Slovak borders, toward KRAKOW.
(S/NATO) 5th Infantry Divisions avenue of advance from LESZNO to LODZ is bounded on the left (north) flank by elements of I German Corps (1st and 7th Panzer Divisions, 11th Panzergrenadier Division, and 27th Fallschirmjaeger Brigade) and the
Polish Warsaw Corps advancing from POZNAN to WARSAW.

They are supported by I Netherlands Corps in reserve. On their left (north), I UK Corps and the Polish Pomeranian Corps are to move from SZCZECIN to surround and bypass GDANSK and then move to occupy BIALYSTOK with I Belgian Corps in reserve holding the perimeter around GDANSK.

(S/NATO) Note that current end-strength of the units designated as divisions
is approximately equivalent to one brigade of vehicles and heavy equipment (including artillery) and few or no air assets. Personnel strength for most units is about 50% of nominal end-strength for the peacetime unit size. Corps strengths are similarly reduced to the approximate strength of a full-strength division. All units under OPERATION RESET have been reinforced and resupplied to the maximum amount available by EUCOM/LANDCEN

Ok so the Soviets overran all those forces and the survivors went running for the woods Suuuurree - that is flat out ridiculous

Per their own handout you are talking about eight Corps that in total are the size of full pre-war divisions, with the divisions making them being approximately the size of a brigade in size and at half strength - i.e. this isnt the 1000 man divisions of V1 and V2.2.

Basically its the end of NATO - this isnt the death of a Division - this is the death of NATO as a fighting force -again this is Soviets Uber Alles and they win the war - which definitely 100% is not what V1 and V2.2 in any way were - not at Kalisz

Frankly this timeline and background is a goat screw.

I know people were hungry for the new edition - but unless you are someone who cheered the Soviets on in Red Dawn I doubt this will be well received by anyone as anything they can build a campaign on.

[Raellus]

Haters Gonna Hate

Ok so the Soviets overran all those forces and the survivors went running for the woods Suuuurree - that is flat out ridiculous

Per their own handout you are talking about eight Corps that in total are the size of full pre-war divisions, with the divisions making them being approximately the size of a brigade in size and at half strength - i.e. this isnt the 1000 man divisions of V1 and V2.2.

Basically its the end of NATO - this isnt the death of a Division - this is the death of NATO as a fighting force -again this is Soviets Uber Alles and they win the war - which definitely 100% is not what V1 and V2.2 in any way were - not at Kalisz

Frankly this timeline and background is a goat screw.

I know people were hungry for the new edition - but unless you are someone who cheered the Soviets on in Red Dawn I doubt this will be well received by anyone as anything they can build a campaign on.

Repost #2:

I still think this is vague enough to allow Ref's room for interpretation. It doesn't say "destroyed" or "annihilated" or "wiped out". "Overrun" doesn't necessarily mean any of these things. Several US divisions could be described as having been overrun during the Battle of the Bulge*, but organized elements of said continued to fight on. German divisions on the eastern front during the later years of WWII were routinely overrun, but many broke out of Soviet pockets and fought their way back to German lines, sometimes over and over again.

*... and "fleeing into the woods." Some of those overrun divisions were rallied, hastily reorganized and reinforced, and put right back into the fight.

If you want to interpret, "In the end, the NATO divisions of Operation Reset are overrun, survivors fleeing into the woods..." as the absolute worst-case scenario, you're free to do so, but I don't see anything in the Alpha rules that states one has to interpret the above the way you have.

And again, the whole point of the backstory is to arrive at a "Good luck. You're on your own..." point where the military-themed survival role-playing game can begin. T2k is not a strategic war game- it never was.

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[Legbreaker]

Which designer was it The lead (Tomas H$renstam) hasn't used his Facebook page in like 9 years.

Not doubting you, but I am genuinely curious, and Mr. H$renstam is the only designer of T2k listed on Free League's webpage.

I saw a number of names pop up on the draft docs. Tomas is best described as the lead designer, certainly not the only one.

[Legbreaker]

They've made significant changes from earlier versions, and then toned it down again, so now it's set in stone I don't quite follow that line of reasoning.

Plus, this time, they're soliciting feedback from all of the KS backers, not just a select few. Might that have a little more weight than small group that got an exclusive sneak peek-

It was far more than a sneak peek. We were encouraged to actively contribute and then our suggestions either ignored of given only the slightest attention. In some cases there were glaring issues raised and all that happened was changing of a word or two with the core problem remaining.

This was in a period where there were supposed to be broad changes made to the foundations of the background. You really think they're going to do anything significant now All that will happen now is tweaks to layout, spelling, and MAYBE a few names here and there.

[Olefin]

Repost #2:

I still think this is vague enough to allow Ref's room for interpretation. It doesn't say "destroyed" or "annihilated" or "wiped out". "Overrun" doesn't necessarily mean any of these things. Several US divisions could be described as having been overrun during the Battle of the Bulge*, but organized elements of said continued to fight on. German divisions on the eastern front during the later years of WWII were routinely overrun, but many broke out of Soviet pockets and fought their way back to German lines, sometimes over and over again.

*... and "fleeing into the woods." Some of those overrun divisions were rallied, hastily reorganized and reinforced, and put right back into the fight.

If you want to interpret, "In the end, the NATO divisions of Operation Reset are overrun, survivors fleeing into the woods... as the absolute worst-case scenario, you're free to do so, but I don't see anything in the Alpha rules that states one has to interpret the above the way you have.

And again, the whole point of the backstory is to arrive at a "Good luck. You're on your own..." point where the military-themed survival role-playing game can begin. T2k is not a strategic war game- it never was.

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I beg to differ - RDF Sourcebook and Kings Ransom are both set up for those who want to do straight war games and playing in an organized military setting - as is the East Africa Sourcebook. Thus it can be played as a strategic war game. And there are those who have used the rules to play units during the war itself - thus again it can be used - especially if you use The Last Battle rules to do so.

As to to the destroyed part - made direct comments on the dropbox comments so will see what they say - but there are other references that basically show the remaining US forces as scattered in Europe - i.e. there are no organized US units left - while the Soviets clearly still have an organized army and military

[Raellus]

Be-lieve Me

It was far more than a sneak peek. We were encouraged to actively contribute and then our suggestions either ignored of given only the slightest attention. In some cases there were glaring issues raised and all that happened was changing of a word or two with the core problem remaining.

This was in a period where there were supposed to be broad changes made to the foundations of the background. You really think they're going to do anything significant now All that will happen now is tweaks to layout, spelling, and MAYBE a few names here and there.

Well, I don't know. I've been hearing hints of this "sneak peek" for a while now but I don't really know what to make of it. Call me overly cynical, but I'm always a bit leery of "I can't tell you anything about it, but trust me on this..." [secret knowledge] type hints and allegations stuff. And you yourself wrote,

Believe me though, this is MUCH better than it was in earlier versions!

And yes, I imagine that if enough KS backers chime in with constructive criticism, it might lead to some change. I mean, if a hundred people poke holes in the game world history, it might have more of an impact than when a select, mostly anonymous few did. Then again, you could be right and I could be wrong.

My point is, I don't see the point in bitching and moaning about something that isn't necessarily set in stone. I doubt it will do much good. I'd rather try to stimulate change through constructive means and official channels, than rant and rave about it on a fan site.

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[Olefin]

It was far more than a sneak peek. We were encouraged to actively contribute and then our suggestions either ignored of given only the slightest attention. In some cases there were glaring issues raised and all that happened was changing of a word or two with the core problem remaining.

This was in a period where there were supposed to be broad changes made to the foundations of the background. You really think they're going to do anything significant now All that will happen now is tweaks to layout, spelling, and MAYBE a few names here and there.

I also had a ton of comments with Tomas and Marc - and got flat out ignored by them and told that what was leaked wasnt the reality of what the game would be -
I have direct quotes that say basically said that what was leaked was totally inaccurate as to the timeline, background, war and campaign start situation - and then out comes the Alpha and it backs up the leaked material - and if anything its worse

and refs can ignore anything they like - but the war and timeline and background is canon if its not changed and would have to be used by anyone writing for the 4th edition - and frankly as stated before its a goat screw - and at this point I doubt Tomas will be listening to anyone even with them getting ripped a new one on FB, here and discord. After all he hasnt been listening to anyone so far.